Let me preface this by saying this thread is NOT about whether or not there is a God. No "Well there is a God, so..." statements, or I shall post mad smilies ( ), and we don't want a post littered with mad smilies. That being said...
I have been pondering something a bit lately. (I like to plan everything about ten years in advance, so don't be too concerned that I am 19 and about to discuss parenting.) I am an agnostic, meaning that I am not sure if there is a god, and would want proof before I believed in one. But life is kind of hard that way...you go through it, thinking that when you lose someone, they are gone forever. When there is sickness, or violence, or general badness, there isn't some great father figure to turn to in order to ask for help, to believe is watching out for you even if no one else is. That security blanket of ideology is simply not there to support you.
Eh, that's me. But I intend to have kids some day. Should I be honest with them, tell them that I do not believe there is a god, that there is no proof of it...just try to be a good parent and hope they have a happy life? Or...
Or I could tell them there is some higher power. That way, even when I am gone, they have that sense of comfort, support, and protection. Their experiences of loss will be blunted. Their lives will be easier. Yet, it would be a lie. It isn't something I believe.
Granted, I will probably go with the former option...I do not think I could lie to my child. But it still got me to thinking: what would be the better thing for the parent to do? Spare their children some of the misery of life, even if doing so means being dishonest, or raising their children in an honest manner, regardless of the possibilities?
What do you guys think?
Posts: 3489 | Location: United States | Registered: 03-17-02
Kids need to know our everyday world, adults need to believe there exist whimsical dreams and fancy.
---- "It's a damn cold night Trying to figure out this life, (...) I don't know who you are but I... I'm with you." ~Avril Lavigne, I'm with you [found here]
Posts: 4372 | Location: Back At Quoteland :) | Registered: 08-18-02
Perhaps you should re-examine why you think a god does not exist, and likewise why you think there could exist one. No children should ever be lied to; they should know the truth. However your situation is difficult, for you have no truth- you don't believe god exists, and yet don't believe that he couldn't exist. I totally understand your predicament- whether or not to tell your children your beliefs. I am the oldest of eight kids, and a couple years ago felt a paticular responsibility towards keeping my ideas out of their lives. I doubted my own idealogy, thus I didn't want them to have to doubt it too. Katelyn, I would sincerely like to challenge you to rethink some of your ideology. Today, such ideas as a "god" makes people laugh in scorn or mockery. They pass it off as mere fantasy that goes against reality. Yet, what really contradicts reality is the idea of no god! Even though that may sound absurd, ask a flight crew from NASA who has stared the cosmos in the face and who has hung in the infinite celestial space above earth, ask them if they really believe that the earth just exploded into being. Even if a tiny, miniscule atom had burst into existence and then formed the earth, the very existence of the atom contradicts the very essence of all rationality. It is a well known fact that nothing comes from nothing. Yet, if the atom burst into being, it would have burst into existence from nothing, which is literally an ontological impossibility. One of the best books I have read on the existence of a god is by Lee Strobel called, "The Case For Faith." It describes his observations as an athiest and is highly informative.
I'm sorry Kate, I think I've kind of spouted a little too much- I have a way of doing that.
"There is nothing more terrifying than ignorance in action." -Geothe
Posts: 481 | Location: Washington, USA | Registered: 11-16-04
My kids are taught a variety of religions at school, from Sikhism to Buddhism, Islam to Christianity. They are taught these in order that they understand that people believe in alternatives and that each religion has value and a place in society.
What I believe is almost irrelevant. I have told my children that I have no proofs for any of my beliefs and that what works for me may or may not work for them. It is up to them to decide what works for them.
The bottom line for them is what does their conscience tell them, what does their ‘inner voice’ tell them, what beliefs will they have which will enhance their lives? Do their beliefs ‘feel’ right?
I’d also ask them to consider: are their beliefs ‘useful’.
I myself will have to face this same fate one day.
Forgive me for having to copy and paste quotes, but a reply from me on QL does not feel right without them. In other words, my reply fails to function without them...
quote:I am an agnostic, meaning that I am not sure if there is a god, and would want proof before I believed in one. But life is kind of hard that way...you go through it, thinking that when you lose someone, they are gone forever. When there is sickness, or violence, or general badness, there isn't some great father figure to turn to in order to ask for help, to believe is watching out for you even if no one else is. That security blanket of ideology is simply not there to support you.
For every bad deed done to us, we have to remember that a good deed will happen elsewhere. I'm not talking about Karma, I'm talking about opposite ends of the spectrum. The point is, in most of our lives, more good will happen to ourselves than bad. This is product of Western Civilization and unfortunately only balanced by the 3rd world nations. Even a God-Fearing Monk knows there is evil in this world. Teach your children that for every down, there is an up and unfortunately vice versa.
Good and bad will happen to us all. With the belief that things will eventually get better as opposed to God will drag me out of this mess is one in the same.
quote:Eh, that's me. But I intend to have kids some day. Should I be honest with them, tell them that I do not believe there is a god, that there is no proof of it...just try to be a good parent and hope they have a happy life? Or...
Or I could tell them there is some higher power. That way, even when I am gone, they have that sense of comfort, support, and protection. Their experiences of loss will be blunted. Their lives will be easier. Yet, it would be a lie. It isn't something I believe.
If I know you, Katelyn, I know that once upon a time, you believed in God. That being said, I don't think you should impede your childrens religious education with your agnostic progagander. Instead, you should allow them the knowledge that you gained yourself as a young girl. They will learn by themselves that their mother doesn't believe in God, and they will make up their own minds as to what they should believe themselves.
quote:Granted, I will probably go with the former option...I do not think I could lie to my child. But it still got me to thinking: what would be the better thing for the parent to do? Spare their children some of the misery of life, even if doing so means being dishonest, or raising their children in an honest manner, regardless of the possibilities?
I get the impression that by a disbelief in God, by default you are more miserable. Are you yourself more miserable than you were before, Katelyn? Religious people aren't any happier when their house gets burgled or a relative dies. They may think that God is punishing them in extreme circumstances. Granted, they may believe that one day they will see their Mother and Father again, but that brins us back to the age old debate...
Is ignorance truly bliss?
It's your call, you're the parent.
Posts: 1045 | Location: England | Registered: 04-13-02
This has been truly insightful. I think too many psychology classes have caused me to forget that my kids will have their own minds, and will be capable of making such decisions for themselves.
Skeg, In particular, I like your suggestion that "With the belief that things will eventually get better as opposed to God will drag me out of this mess is one in the same." And you are right, good and bad will happen...and the best thing for me to do is to explain my views and let them choose their own. Who knows...perhaps being raised without the "There is a God who will condemn you to hell if you disbelieve/will make everything better if you are good" sermon will cause my kids to not find life as hard without religion. I guess only time will tell.
Sidenote: if you do not mind my saying so, you sound different somehow. Your reply was wonderfully well thought out, as always, but...you seem more...peaceful, maybe? I guess I am just used to cynical (though humorous) replies from you, and I was just curious as to whether anything had changed...?
Posts: 3489 | Location: United States | Registered: 03-17-02
I think all of the above thoughts are worthwhile considerations. Myself an agnostic, I too will have to face this one day. And I've given it some thought.
But first, a relevant consideration: Statistically, the thing associated with happiness isn't belief or disbelief in god specifically, but rather surety with regard to the answer to this question. The happiest people in the U.S. are the true believers and the atheists; those of us in the middle are cast a darker lot. These are just correlations and can prove no causality, but perhaps this will help to clarify your thinking a bit. In this light I think Skeg’s point (as usual) is well taken, that you needn’t teach about a higher being to achieve the same effect. If happiness is the goal, you just need some solid beliefs.
All of that being said, I’m still ambivalent whether this ‘committed’ route is the best one. On one hand, I feel my life is greatly enriched because I actively question and examine the beliefs and arguments around me. Then again, the beliefs and values accumulated over generations (if they’re good ones) can help to point one in the right direction more surely than one’s self-guided moral flailings. And, of course, there could still be a true god who’s shown us a true path, but that’s off topic.
Here’s my present solution, though one clearly subject to change: Give them a moral/ethical root structure from which to grow, develop, and explore. If, as far as you can tell, one belief is as good as any other with regard to truth, give them a set of beliefs with which to begin life that will encourage the sorts of virtues you think people need. As I said before, it doesn’t even have to be a religion. Here’s the key: Children need clarity. Someone said earlier that children should never be lied to. I think this is true, but clearly neither ought we reveal the whole truth when children aren’t ready for it. When your sister is PMSing and cranky and your four year old son asks you why she won’t play with him, you needn’t explain the evolution of sexual dimorphism and how it resulted in differing hormonal physiologies; you just tell him she’s not feeling well. In the same way, you can take belief sets which contain valuable truths about the world and how we should get along in it and teach it to your children as truth, even if it’s not the complete truth. As they grow older, you can encourage them to probe and question the world around them so that they may discover additional truths on their own and the extent to which these truths are limited, and can yourself be increasingly more candid about your beliefs.
My father is a Christian minister. He tells me that his biggest professional embarrassments are sermons he taught on raising children before he himself had kids. Perhaps one day I’ll stumble across this post and feel the same way. But whatever conclusions on this matter I eventually reach, I think the following points are tenable as guidelines: 1) Choosing not to tell all you know or think is not the same as lying; 2) Guiding belief structures needn’t (and shouldn’t) prohibit critical examinations thereof; and 3) Full examinations of complex matters should to some degree be reserved for those capable of tackling them (i.e., you oughtn’t ask the same four year old son to construct a proof of the existence of God before teaching him about it, since he requires additional cognitive development and critical thinking tools before he’s capable of attempting this task).
I think what this discussion really needs is more comments from parents on this site who've tried some different approaches, and what they wish they'd done differently. 'Cause hey, what do I know?
That's a universal statement that not only applies to this question, but applies to anything whith so much 'grey area'. In my opinion, I don't even think a parent can give true advice. Every child is radically different from the next. A good thing, of course.
As for change? Perhaps I have changed. I can be serious when I want to be, or I can attempt to rip apart and belittle every letter of every statement you try to imply. Either way, I'm always me, which isn't always a good thing.
Posts: 1045 | Location: England | Registered: 04-13-02
Very true. Even so, I didn't mean to say that their testimony would be definitive, merely informative. If we were talking about welfare policy, it'd be useful to look at the experiences of nations who had tried different approaches we were considering, even though what's successful in one nation might not be in another. The same applies here, even if it doesn't tell us for certain how it'd work out with any given child.
If their father and mother do not believe in God. I think it's going to be hard for the kids to believe in him. Of course you can be totally opposite but "the apples do not fall far from the tree".
quote:Should I be honest with them, tell them that I do not believe there is a god, that there is no proof of it...just try to be a good parent and hope they have a happy life? Or...
Or I could tell them there is some higher power. That way, even when I am gone, they have that sense of comfort, support, and protection. Their experiences of loss will be blunted. Their lives will be easier. Yet, it would be a lie. It isn't something I believe.
Or you can tell them nothing at all. I am not going to do your homework boy! Life is a learning progress and you figure your own sh*t! Even if you don't make one bit of sense, you should do it anyway. May be you'll change, may be you wouldn't ... may be you'll change and the change it back again. May be you’ll be logical, may be you’ll be bias in your believes just like me …. May be you wouldn’t make one bit of sense.
We have all kinds of people in this World, you’ll fit right in.
quote:I get the impression that by a disbelief in God, by default you are more miserable. Are you yourself more miserable than you were before, Katelyn?
What are you a shrink now? You went away for a few months now got a degree in Psychology?
“who honestly comes to this website to look up quotes?” - PSUfootball21 (PSU for life baby)
I am also agnostic, and if I had kids I wouldn't lie to them. I'd tell them that I don't know if there is a god, that is something that they'll have to decide for themselves when they're old enough to have a basic understanding of religion and life in general. I'd rather have honesty than comfort, because in a way comfort is also like denial, and I believe in just admitting things no matter how harsh it may be. If the future is anything like it is now, or worse, than kids are going to have be mentally tough. Comfort won't do them any good, neither will hiding behind things that even you are not sure are real. Because maybe there is a purpose in life, maybe there isn't. Maybe we all have a destiny, maybe we don't. And with all the maybe's and if's in the world is too hard to come up with a definitive approach to teaching people "the meaning of life." I think that what might give people/kids the most comfort is knowing that they're a good person, that they have values and truths that are important to THEM, and not living a life according to a book.
I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad. The dreams in which I'm dying, are the best I've ever had. I find it hard to tell you, cuz I find it hard to take. When people run in circles, it's a very very Mad World... Mad World...
I am a theistic determinist, so I found your dilemma particularly intriguing. After considerable thought, my practical advice, given your worldview, would be to not sacrifice your integrity. Kids, when old enough, can smell hypocrisy a mile away and if you in your heart of hearts embrace agnosticism/atheism, and yet teach your kids about a Higher Power, they will eventually lose respect for you. (This works in homes where, for example, a child is reared to believe in the God of the Bible and yet the parents practice a practical agnosticism.... Actions speak louder than words). In a sense, while you may influence your child's thought life, his destiny is his own. Madelyn M. O'Hare, the famous atheist, now has a preacher-son who defends the Scriptures. Grinchman's preacher-father now has a son who is an agnostic. Life is full of ironies.
Be honest. Be true. Have integrity. What I liked about my parents is that they weren't intimidated by others' worldviews. I attended a parochial school and sat under religious teaching at odds with my parents' beliefs and I attended secular government schools that contradicted home teaching; my parents just had me come home each day, ask me what I'd learned, and explained why they respectfully disagreed with the teacher. I blame them for my deep maverick streak.
------------------------------ It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.... There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. ~ CS Lewis, Weight of Glory
[This message was edited by Airedale on 12-23-04 at 07:52 AM.]
), and we don't want a post littered with mad smilies. That being said...
