This is a test: I'm trying to insert IPA symbols... don't laugh...

There's a problem: the word "genre" (though it is french) isn't pronounced in the same way in English (again, according to Robert & Collins French-English Dictionary).
In English: [zã: rə]
In French: [zãR]
My /z/ here should be a handwritten small z...

The vowel seems to be shorter and less nasalized in French; but I'm not a good linguist.

I hope it helps (and that the symbols will appear correctly!).

Well... the red cross should be transcribed as the "n" like in "sing"; the square should be a schwa...

Just thought of another word in English that has the sound the "g" in protege and genre has: rouge.

It seems to confirm my theory, though, that these are all French loan words.

I wonder if the IPA symbol "R" is supposed to signify the French guttural "r". We English speakers pronounce our "r"s more to the front of the mouth, and rarely trill them.

What odd sounds French has! What can I say about it? The French are just a bunch of Germanics who don't know how to pronounce Latin.

Sensus, non aetas, inuenit sapientem.
--Publilius Syrus

Again, the first vowel in "rouge" is shorter in French and the initial is an /R/ (just to bother Jwpublius ).
This "R" is pronounced very backwards indeed, the tip of the tongue being against the lower teeth.
That's funny you say we trill our /R/. That's true, even if a Parisian would say he doesn't and would add that only people who live in the south of France do.
Now, have a try, Jwpublius: "Trois gros rats, dans trois gros trous, rongeaient trois grosses carottes rouges"

"Three fat rats in three big holes gnaw on three big red carrots."

Kudos for me having to look up only three words; shame on me for not making the thing rhyme, like it does in the French.

And by the way, how do you get rongeaient from ronger? Is it some odd-looking form of the subjunctive? If so, then my translation's off.

Sensus, non aetas, inuenit sapientem.
--Publilius Syrus

So then there's the whole messy business of pronouncing Latin. Especially annoying that we don't have any native Latin speakers. I think we've had this conversation before on some forum or other, but if so, here it comes again . . .

There are the academics. Their Latin comes from (I'm told) 19th-c. German scholars, and they see "veni, vidi, vici," and say "way-nee, wee-dee, wee-kee."

And then there are the choir singers, who use a much more italianate liturgical Latin. I would sing "vay-nee, vee-dee, vee-chee."

And then there's horticultural Latin, which seems to me to be entirely unpredictable. "Whatever sounds plausible" appears to be the guiding principle.

Seashell ebb music wayriver she flows. --James Joyce

Ah yes, but there is merit for the scholars' position. I thought it was rather arbitrary myself, until I encountered a number of inscriptions in my researches in the multi-tome series Inscriptiones Graecae ad Res Romanas Pertinentes. As you might imagine, there are a myriad of inscriptions set up by or in honor of the Roman Emperors. In the Western half of the Empire, from modern-day Yugoslavia and Tunisia westwards, the vast majority of these inscriptions were, as you can imagine, in Latin. But in the East, these were predominantly in Greek: the Roman Empire had two "official" languages.

Now, what happens when one wants to transliterate the emperor's name into Greek letters for use in the Greek half of the empire? One encounters a problem similar to the one I described in a previous post: though the Latin and Greek alphabets each contain twenty four letters, these letters do not necessarily convey the same sound values. For example, the letter e in the Latin language had both a long and a short value: when transliterated, the long e becomes Greek eta, the short e Greek epsilon.

So how do we know that the Latin consonantal u (often written v), as in veni, vidi, vici, has the sound value of the English w? Well, take the emperors Vespasian and Septimius Severus for examples. Greek does not have a letter that conveys the sound value w, so what to do? Well, the persons who carved the Greek inscriptions with these emperors' names fell back on an approximation: they wrote the Latin consonantal u as omicron+upsilon, which I'll call "OU". The combination omicron+upsilon normally carried the sound value "oo" as in the English "soon". When the "OU" was combined with the Greek epsilon, which has the sound of e in English "met", as in Vespasian, or with the Greek eta, which has the sound of English "a" in "day", as in Severus, you get "oo+eh" and "oo+ay": sounds that approximate the sound value of the English w. Thus, in classical Latin consonantal u has the sound value of English w.

This conclusion is inescapable when one considers that those who set up inscriptions would probably not be inclined to publicly insult the emperor by mispelling his name.

Scholars also know the quantities that Latin vowels possessed by detailed study of Latin verse, i.e. scansion, because Latin verse was written mostly in quantitative, rather than stressed, meter. But that is fodder for another post, and this one is already too long.

Sensus, non aetas, inuenit sapientem.
--Publilius Syrus

Long, perhaps, but clear. I've always wondered and now I know. Call me Wiktoria.

Seashell ebb music wayriver she flows. --James Joyce

"rongeaient" is a past tense: the imperferct/l'imparfait (-ais, -ais, -ait, -ions, -iez, -aient).
The French don't write rongaient (/ge/ like "geld" in English) but "rongeaient" to keep the sound "je" (like the infinitive form "ronger" or the last syllable in "pleasure" in English).
I think that's the same in Spanish.

"Imperfect" would be better...

Uh oh, it appears makepeace has poked a hole in my theory that the "zh" sound doesn't naturally occur in English! "pleasure"

Let me look it up, though......


pleas·ure, n.

The state or feeling of being pleased or gratified.
A source of enjoyment or delight: The graceful skaters were a pleasure to watch.
Amusement, diversion, or worldly enjoyment: “Pleasure... is a safer guide than either right or duty” (Samuel Butler).
Sensual gratification or indulgence.
One's preference or wish: What is your pleasure?

v. pleas·ured, pleas·ur·ing, pleas·ures

v. tr.
To give pleasure or enjoyment to; gratify: Our host pleasured us with his company.

v. intr.
To take pleasure; delight: The hiker paused, pleasuring in the sounds of the forest.
To go in search of pleasure or enjoyment.


[Middle English, from Old French plaisir, from plaisir, to please. See please.]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pleasure

Wait, it looks like I was right, but in a roundabout way. English took the word "pleasure" from Old French instead of modern French. Those doggone Normans!


I wonder how the French imperfect came from the Latin? It certainly doesn't look like -bam, -bas, -bat, -bamus, -batis, -bant.

Sensus, non aetas, inuenit sapientem.
--Publilius Syrus

I think you wonder too much, but...

"Wisdom begins in wonder" Socrates

Look what I found!

Genre Click on the little speaker on the left side of the page. The voice is a bit rough but it's close enough.

Makepeace, we'll need your approval on this one! What do you think?

Get Curious!

Thank you Asa! The transcription you've found fits the English pronunciation (according to my dictionary).
But in French it would be pronounced in this way: [zhãR].
There's no /n/ because the vowel is already nasalized (in English you pronounce the nasalized vowel and the /n/, as the man does). Hence, the first syllable is shorter in French.
In French, there's no schwa or "mute e" at the end.
And /R/ would replace the English /r/; the /R/ is between your /r/ and the Spanish jota.

I'm sorry, I know it's not crystal clear... but I don't know how to explain it, I'm not a specialist

I understand now, especially about the shortened syllable. I don't remember ever having to use the word 'genre' when speaking French.

What we need now is a French website dictionary that has a voice feature!

I like this thread.

Get Curious!

It means almost the same; the French have a lot of phrases in which it appears. genre

I hopetoo that, one day, we'll find a French website dictionary with a voice feature!

How do you pronounce Ms in front of a name of a woman who doesn't want people to know about her marital status? and what does it stand for, exactly?

"Ms" is simply an honorific like Mr or Mrs. It's pronounced like the word "miss", i.e. with the i short as the word "in", and, in fact, I think it is generally regarded as an abbreviation of the honorific "Miss". It's supposed to designate a woman who is unmarried, and, as far as I know, there is no alternative honorific if she should not wish to give away her marital status. On the other hand, we English-speakers here in America tend to call a woman "Ma'am" if we don't know her marital status, even though it properly is an alternative to Mrs; "Ma'am" and "Sir" are alternatives to "Mrs/Ms" and "Mr".

Sensus, non aetas, inuenit sapientem.
--Publilius Syrus

You might try substituting the ss for a z.

Get Curious!

how do you prounce:-
a) monsieur
b) madamoiselle
c) garage
d) vase
e) sycophant



“If I can stop one heart from breaking,
I shall not live in vain;
If I can ease one life the aching,
Or cool one pain,
Or help one fainting robin
Unto his nest again,
I shall not live in vain.”
-Emily Dickinson