Fools Game

on the soft velvet green
they lie still grouped as one
head of the pack looked out
over the vast expanse
and in the distance saw
white round and rotating
a moon perhaps a close star.

in dark corners of their universe
dark holes await them
the white roundness is getting closer
they feel a rumble upon their plain.

suddenly the members in the pack panic
they are pushed fast, scattering,
in every direction
some disappearing forever.

one by one they are picked off
by the rolling white god of the green plain.

all that’s left of the group
one solitary member

the white god comes
he is hit and bounces away
once twice three times
he bounces
before he stills.

as he still he hears a roar
the white god has been
sacrificed.

he hears a strange sound
that he has never heard
the words ---

“Scratch, you rack’em up!!

Who would know the carnal mistress?
That has burned her brand into my soul.

I will address things in layers to keep it simple.

Question one:

Why have you been so "economical" with the punctuation? Is there a reason, or is it laziness? Do you know where the punctuation should go in places that it is lacking? Is it only used in some places as emphasis?

I was going to ask the same thing about punctuation, you have some, but you don't capitalize anything.. a period is the end of a sentence, but you don't show where any start (by capitalizing the first word of the sentence). Commas are need in many places (I've added some).

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Fools Game

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Fool's Game or Fools' Game. One fool? more that one?

quote:

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on the soft velvet green
they lie still , grouped as one,
the head of the pack looked out
over the vast expanse
and in the distance saw
white round and rotating
a moon, perhaps a close star.

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quote:

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they

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they (and other pronouns) is vague, doesn't really tell me anything. That was my first thought, but at the end, I see why you used 'they'

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and in the distance saw
white round and rotating
a moon perhaps a close star.

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? needs work. Needs an article of some sort, or delete the 'a' before moon. saw a white round rotating moon, or perhaps a close star.

quote:

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the white god comes
he is hit and bounces away
once , twice, three times
he bounces
before he stills.

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before he is still, before he stops...

quote:

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as he still he hears a roar

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as he is still, as he slows, ?

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he hears a strange sound
that he has never heard
the words -

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delete that, add a comma after sound

'still' is over used.

This is my point. I feel you didn't read over this before posting, rather than helping you, all I'm doing to correcting grammar and such. Punctuation can add or take away a lot from a work, the lack of can confuse or slow the reader.

With that said, I like the ending, it's not what I was expecting, so that's good. I was thinking of wolves or something, so good job with that.

"I'm telling you. People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying, 'Ha ha!' But do they know anything about A? They don't. It's just three sticks to them. But to the Educated - mark this, little Piglet- to the Educated, not meaning Poohs and Piglets, it's a great and glorious A." --Eeyore, The House at Pooh Corner

Matty and ELynn... i typed this in about three minutes. It is very raw I haven't really gone over it at all till I posted it here. my question and i am not really trying to be obtuse or contrary but playing the devil's advocate here. If this had been a brand new memeber, and not someone who work you might know. Would the comments you gave be the same?
and how many people on this site want to help a new person? When i first got on here it became a ghost town. The only one here was lynn and Lynn you were doing ok with what i gave you at that time, and I was new also, but it sure would have boosted my confidence a heck of a lot more had some one taken the time that matty seems to be taking right now. And made a few positive constuctive poeints about the piece i was posting. I can take constuctive critism. What i don't like is being told that my poetry isnt up to standard or that it is filled with cliches, does a beginning poet even know what a cliche is? I didn't. I am not trying to point finger or to downgrade anyone but some of the critiques i have recieved have been downright discouraging for a new poet. luckily not too many of them were on here but other sites. When I first started posting I expected to be told lots of things to help me not to push me back into a mold of someone elses idea of what a poet does or does not do. I would love to have my poetry read just as a poem, why does it always have to make sense. why can't it be just fun? maybe I am missing something they teach in colledge. maybe i am just overtired and feeling grumpy. But i do care about my poetry and others and i try my damndest to help.
Steve

ps I will go over this without reading the comments again and will correct everything that I think is wrong and post again to see what the new comments will be.

Who would know the carnal mistress?
That has burned her brand into my soul.

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Would the comments you gave be the same?

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Yep. Minus everything after 'still is over used'. I wouldn't have added that's my point or the positive. If the person was new, and I noticed, I would had added a welcome and keep writing.

Please check your pt's for the rest of my respond.

"I'm telling you. People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying, 'Ha ha!' But do they know anything about A? They don't. It's just three sticks to them. But to the Educated - mark this, little Piglet- to the Educated, not meaning Poohs and Piglets, it's a great and glorious A." --Eeyore, The House at Pooh Corner

[EeyoreLynn, it has been plaguing me for a while now - is it a dialect in your area that uses the words "respond" and "responds" instead of the normal, grammatical "response"?]

Okay, well, seeing as I still have no response I'm going to do the job of an editor on your poem. I assure you, I only have time for the kind of replies I am giving because I have just finished my degree and I am waiting to go home and find Summer work - I respond the same to all poets, if I can help it. I am bond to cover ground EeyoreLynn has done in the following edit.

I have never been to the States, but I come from a country with a near total literacy rate, so in my experience
the basic grammar you are failing to use should have been taught to you across the ages of 5 to 10. This is not specialised learning that is taught in College, it is basic communication - like speaking with or without a stutter, only on a page.

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on the soft velvet green
they lie still grouped as one
head of the pack looked out
over the vast expanse
and in the distance saw
white round and rotating
a moon perhaps a close star.

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Where to even begin?! Even after I sat and inserted grammar into this stanza it was gibberish - and yet, frustratingly, I understand what you are trying to write - it is just obscured by your writing. Let me get this straight:

Still grouped, they lie on the soft, velvet green while one head of the pack looks over the vast expanse and sees, in the distance, a moon that was white, round, and rotating - a moon that was perhaps even a close star?

Even when I write it out like this is seems nonsensical and pointless - who are "they", what is the "vast expanse", why are they "still grouped" - your intent doesn't seem to be to be unspecific, so why be?
You have this wolves metaphor implied, and yet you never use it and it is a cliche! Yes. It is. Utterly.
They're ones I've used, they're ones John's used, they're ones Betty used, they're ones monkeys would use if given a typewriter for two days; they're ones every poet and his dog (poets like dogs) has used in their early days of writing! A very respectable poet named Ezra Pound once said of writing poetry, "Make it new." This isn't the only option, of course, you could become a master of poetic conventions and classical traditions - you could write like Pope or Behn or Rochester - but that doesn't seem your style at all, and it would takes years of constant practice.
So keep it simple, simplify this whole poem. Write down what you are saying plainly, in sequential order, giving new information where it sits appropriately:

The brown elm in the garden is a panda-bear. = YES!

A panda-bear the brown elm in the garden is. = NO NO NO!

Be tactfully specific. Try not to write things like:

The tree in the garden is a panda. = No.

Still grouped [after or because of what?], [the wolves/fools/somethings] lie on the soft, velvet green while one head of the pack [cliche!] looks over the vast expanse [of what?] and sees, in the distance, a moon that was white, round, and rotating - a moon that was perhaps even a close star?

Don't post your poems immediately - if it takes pressure to write your poetry pretend you are about to post it and then don't. Put it away. Look at it in the morning. Brew it like tea.

Lynn and Matty thanks for the critiques I would not have normally posted this untill i had gone over it a few more times, but i wanted a raw piece that was still not anywhere near the final stage.

"The head of the pack looked out
over the vast expanse," So what I am understanding ..Matty is that this sentance is considered cliche..I guess I still dont understand that....I can see that it is vauge, but that was intentional. I was trying to get the reader to slowly realize that what he is reading is about a game of pool from the balls perspective...I don't know if there is a better way, and again these are the words as they came to me while just sitting here typing on the word processor.

Yhe english classes I had during my formative years were all mostly boring to me so i paid little or no attention, Until my last two years in high school. and that was almost forty some years ago... the mind tends to wander..lol. I kick myself many times for not going back and going thru retraining and i am going to do that here soon as I will be eligble for taking classes free at university. I hope this time I will pay attention...lol.



Steve

Who would know the carnal mistress?
That has burned her brand into my soul.

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EeyoreLynn, it has been plaguing me for a while now - is it a dialect in your area that uses the words "respond" and "responds" instead of the normal, grammatical "response"?]

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No, just my poor spelling! Thanks for pointing that out.

They bothered me too, as I pointed out, untill I got to the end and found there was a reason for they.

Ohsteve, I believe there is a grammar tutor around here somewhere

Matt said

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head of the pack [cliche!]

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A cliche is an over used phrase. hard as a rock, light as a feather, clear as crystal, and such. I will look for more examples later.

"I'm telling you. People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying, 'Ha ha!' But do they know anything about A? They don't. It's just three sticks to them. But to the Educated - mark this, little Piglet- to the Educated, not meaning Poohs and Piglets, it's a great and glorious A." --Eeyore, The House at Pooh Corner

Lynn.. I always seem to find the time to read these when i am tired. when I get tired i tend to rant. I apologise for the rant. but as i said on the thread by Lord Snow. I know the meaning of cliche but again to me 'head of the pack' is just words i havent overused them thi8s is my first time I swear. So how can they be cliche to me? That is the point I am trying to make. as a new poet which I think I still am. I am not much of a reader of poetry, but I do read lots i have probably read close to ten thousand books I have over 4000 in my own collection. I have read many times the same words used very much the same way in several books but I have never seen a book critic call the auther on it, why are we so hard in poetry on the same thing? I now read at least ten to twenty poems a day on many different sites. Some of the posts I have read six or seven times becuase it makes no sense to me, but yet the other poets on the site praise it to heaven. Why? I have many why questions....LOL. I understand basic grammer but that doesnt mean I am always going to use it. Because I want to write the way the words the way they come to me does that make it a bad poem? I never claim to be a whiz at english grammer or puncuation. ok I missed a apostrophe big deal that doesnt take away from the poem as a whole. I am ranting agian I will stop and come back later.
steve

Who would know the carnal mistress?
That has burned her brand into my soul.

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I have read many times the same words used very much the same way in several books but I have never seen a book critic call the auther on it, why are we so hard in poetry on the same thing?

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Once you're published you can break the rules! lol, really it's not the end of the world.

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I understand basic grammer but that doesnt mean I am always going to use it. Because I want to write the way the words the way they come to me does that make it a bad poem?

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No, it doesn't always make it a bad poem. This is why I rarely post to works that aren’t in the Workshop. say I don't like the way you word something, but you do. You don't have to change it, it won't bother me one bit. I don't always use basic grammar either and I sure as heck can't spell, but making mistakes can and does take away from the work.

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ok I missed a apostrophe big deal that doesnt take away from the poem as a whole.

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That's where you are wrong, at least for me, and all my professors and my ex-boss. When I see mistakes it distracts from the work, heck even when I find them in books I read it bothers me (and I do see mistakes in published books, no one is perfect-but that doesn't mean the work should be as perfect as you can make it). That's why you post in the workshop. I can't edit my own stuff, I don't expect others to (I expect others to run basic spelling and grammar check). But by someone pointing a mistake out, hey this is xyz, maybe next time you'll pay attention to it or maybe you'll say, no, I did that for a reason. Which is fine.

I think it comes from so many years of school. Professor don't see what you do right, they see what you wrong, and where you can improve.

I'd just like to point out, there's a difference between making a mistake and purposefully writing something incorrectly. Also,as for the title to this thread- I read it without realizing who the author was.


For this poem, since it's pretty much a train of thought/idea (action one goes to action two goes to action three etc), it really needs some punctuation. Personally, I tend to over-do it with the commas and the dashes, commas for when I pause (I also use line ends) and dashes for when I want the words to be connected, and/or if I'm unsure how it's supposed to be spelt (or spelled). (I also tend the throw in apostrophes when I am unsure because someone will tell me when to use them or not and the grammer check doesn't always catch them. I can never EVER remember when to and when not to leave them in there.)

As for cliches, people say don't use them... because they are over used. However, there are times when they fit- and sometimes, word meanings in the south are not the same as in the north, nor are they the same as in new zealand or australia or- you get the point.

As for the poem, are you still looking for help on it or was this just your way of getting people's attention?

-Harv
Stella Splendens
December 22, 1985-March 27, 2003

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I'd just like to point out, there's a difference between making a mistake and purposefully writing something incorrectly.

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Yes, and those reading the work don't always know that. Which is why I'll point out whatever I see, and why I said it's up to the writer to take or reject suggestions/corrections. You said what I wanted to say, only with much fewer (less?) words.

"I'm telling you. People come and go in this Forest, and they say, 'It's only Eeyore, so it doesn't count.' They walk to and fro saying, 'Ha ha!' But do they know anything about A? They don't. It's just three sticks to them. But to the Educated - mark this, little Piglet- to the Educated, not meaning Poohs and Piglets, it's a great and glorious A." --Eeyore, The House at Pooh Corner

This is one reason why I tend to either stick it in there when I post as a preface or something, or I just let it go, and if/when I reply I let them know. However I always encourage people to point out mistakes, because I might have missed something (hey, i'm human and my computer/spell check is only as good as me! kinda)... also I tend to play with words when I write so usually the reader can see where I got the words like: mark her or mark[h]er out of marker and why I might use them interchangeably.

I think it's the mark of a good writer/poet/ess when you can play with the words, and leave punctuation out and put punctuation in and generally have fun and the reader isn't all thrown off. However there are some poems that leave people scratching their heads (I believe I've written a few like that), and sometimes the writer wants it like that. Personally I think if a writer posts online at all they're opening themselves to at least a little constructive criticism (part of the reason why if I think something is wrong I try to find something I really liked about it and let them know, helps soften the blow a bit) and if they're posting in this forum they're opening themselves into a good bit of constructive criticism.

So honestly, if I don't reply, either I need more time to think about it, or I couldn't find something I did like about it. But I can usually find something I like about them. Mostly because I like to talk. And listening inside my head is only me to make me stop, and sometimes I go on too much and won't. Stop, that is. Or listening. Heck I don't know.

-Harv
Stella Splendens
December 22, 1985-March 27, 2003

Thanks to everyone how has posted on this post about the poem. I really learned some things, got some things off my chest ..so to speack, I mainly posted this to get the attention for everyone to focus and just vent and air and like me rant a little.I will post my corrected version over on the poetry site and take and answer any thing else over there. Lynn I think you might go ahead and lock this one down.

Who would know the carnal mistress?
That has burned her brand into my soul.