Waiting to see where this question is to be lead..... Still waiting...

Still waiting......

I honestly cannot wait to see what all4thedreamgiver has in mind for fuzzies...

I am going to bear with ya for the moment, but as a judge would say, this better be going somewhere important..... lol.. Sorry but I love a good debate...

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

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I eat free-range eggs. Yes.

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OK, Fuzzies, are these eggs fertile? Are you a vegan, or merely a vegetarian?

You find what you look for.
Just put on my tombstone "Postage due, return to sender!" all4thedreamgiver

I am a vegetarian, in a sense... ...occasionally I eat shellfish. But I think you're best to make your point without asking too many more obscure questions.

I agree with Fuzzies... If I were a judge I would have already told the jury to dismiss everything you just said....

However, please, let's get on with the debate....

The questions you ask are like asking, hey fuzzies I notice that your icon has these words below it "Passionate Moderate." How passionate are you???

Just make your point please... I am a nice guy but I hate waiting patiently for a debate to move on.....

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

Hey all4thedreamgiver, as I was reading the egg questions over and over to see what you were trying to prove, I then relized that I remember reading something....

"Pro-choice Claim #1: The unborn are human but they are not people, instead they are just potential people. It's like how the egg you had for breakfast was a potential chicken, not an actual one....."

Indeed true, it's easier said, than said through questions....

However this Pro-choice Claim #1 does not explain how a child in the womb becomes a person; however, except maybe birth, which no reason is given for assumption....


personally i think this pro-choice thing is lame..... This is all lame... Why don't all of us men go out and **** some women and tell them to go and abort the tissue within their wombs.... anyone?????? To these pro-choice people we are not murders..... Were just throwing another tissue into the trash from blowing our noses.... Guess there's no differents.... Damn shame, I'd say...

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.



Anyone else want to read about the sled crap be my quest..... http://arizonarighttolife.org/uploads/what_is_a_person_I.pdf

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I am a vegetarian, in a sense... ...occasionally I eat shellfish. But I think you're best to make your point without asking too many more obscure questions.

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Well, Fuzzies, if you eat fertile eggs, haven't you just eaten one of your potential cousins? (friends, relatives, cohorts, consorts, etc.)

Stack High In Transit, Pete!!?? IS THAT YOU????



You find what you look for.
Just put on my tombstone "Postage due, return to sender!" all4thedreamgiver


[This message was edited by all4thedreamgiver on 03-10-08 at 06:12 AM.]

No. I've eaten an egg. An egg with no mind, thoughts, feelings, or anything. An egg with nothing to lose, as it were. Just an egg. It's an odd source of nutrition, I try to avoid them general out of a 'yuck factor', but I don't avoid them completely.

[This message was edited by Fuzzies on 03-10-08 at 06:10 AM.]

Poor Pete, he will never realize his full potential now!!

You find what you look for.
Just put on my tombstone "Postage due, return to sender!" all4thedreamgiver

Potential, is something someone has the ability to be, but if they never realized that ability, then they never had the chance of realizing who they were. It's better to take a chicken egg and eat it before they realize who they are rather then shoot a full grown one who'll suffer it's own death, but it's a shame that a mother will abort her only child, her own flesh of blood.. That's a shame... To kill another animal is no shame unless you do it to be ruthless rather, than to feed yourself, but your own flesh of blood is your family and that is a crime.....

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

Please explain:

All4:

How does potential personhood = personhood?

Topgun:

Pro-choice is simply the doctrine that a woman may choose how she uses her body prior to a foetus developing personhood. How does your example of deliberately impregnating then forcing abortion discredit the pro-choicers' position?

What, if not consciousness, feeling and self-determination, are the essential elements of personhood? Why?

Why is a non-conscious foetus precious and a conscious non-human animal not?

What is it about being 'family' that means we must not abort foetuses? What makes a foetus part of a 'family'?

Why is it okay to eat a chicken egg before it becomes conscious, but not okay to abort a foetus?

You say it is 'okay' to kill other animals for food. Would it be 'less bad' in your mind if foetuses were used in some way?

What makes a foetus importantly different to any other tissue prior to consciousness developing?

[This message was edited by Fuzzies on 03-11-08 at 01:59 AM.]

Also, Topgun:

Do you think the pro-choice woman you told us about who cried could have been crying about something other than regret? Do you think your assessment of her state of mind might be clouded by confirmation bias a little?

All4thedreamgiver might also like to note that the eggs we eat from shops are, generally, not fertilised. Few egg laying operations keep their hens with roosters.

Every argument so far depends on someone putting forward an agreeable definition of personhood. Is anyone game?

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Do you think the pro-choice woman you told us about who cried could have been crying about something other than regret? Do you think your assessment of her state of mind might be clouded by confirmation bias a little?

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No, because shortly after she ran, she then came back. Her name is Tammy and she is a friend of mine, but regardless of me calling her a killer.. I told her I was sorry and I have never brought the conversation to her again.. She has never brought it to me either.. So we leave it that way because it protects our friendship.. She told me the truth and the truth is that it hurts her and she never wanted it, but it was her parents who encourged her to get an abortion due to unfinished education.. They told her it was for her future and if she had this baby it would destory her future...

Shameful lie from her parents, a baby is life and a child will give you a future, but maybe not the one you wanted; however, it is still a future..

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

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Why is a non-conscious foetus precious and a conscious non-human animal not?


What is it about being 'family' that means we must not abort foetuses? What makes a foetus part of a 'family'?


Why is it okay to eat a chicken egg before it becomes conscious, but not okay to abort a foetus?


You say it is 'okay' to kill other animals for food. Would it be 'less bad' in your mind if foetuses were used in some way?


What makes a foetus importantly different to any other tissue prior to consciousness developing?

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Not what I mean... Both are indeed important; however, what is also important is that we are not killing ourselves.. Ok, wolves eat other animals, bears eat other animals, tigers eat other animals, lions eat other animals, and not themselves. We are animal killers, but not self killers..

What makes a foetus a family? Clearly, an egg within a human woman and a seed within a human man. Once they combine they are indeed just a little tissue without a beating heart, but they still carry the human egg and seed.. This in fact makes the foetus family to the mother and father.

I did not say it was ok to eat an chicken egg, but personally I love eggs and I cannot avoid them.. I eat other animals because I enjoy the meat. Eggs I enjoy the tast, but is it right, no?? Maybe not, but for one I do not have to live with knowing I killed my own foetus by encourgeing my woman to have an abortion. I am 20 years old and I am soon to be a father within 4 weeks.. I dropped out of college and got a job and I am living happily waiting for my child to be born.. On april 1st or before my boy Tristan Gladen Strait will be born.. My girl will finish college and when she gets a job then maybe I will go back to get my degree but if I don't, then oh well... My child has become more important to me now then my college education ever was... It's not a matter of what is more important, but a matter of pride. Human's are humans the moment the eggs are attached to the seeds.. Maybe not with a beating heart, but if you only had half a brain does that make you less human?? Half a heart?? Half an arm?? half a leg?? half a body?? Humans have hearts, brains, legs, arms, eyes, and much more, but without one of these are they really consider less human??

No I would not feel better because then we would be eating ourselves.... Still killing ourselves.. Mother chickens don't eat their eggs... They crack them if they feel danger is near by.. Afried that another animal will eat them, but not themselves. We useally have an abortion to get the future we want not to protect the child.

Nothing is different, but all animals do their best to protect what they can rather than abort them... Why can't humans do the same?? Animals sometimes don't want to have sex, but the male will put them down and rape them. Still when they get pregnant they keep the foetus and raise a child or children; however, not us.. We get raped and or if we get an unexpected pregnancy then we abort the child, we condamn the child for a crime it did not do.

Let me state something, human foetus are no more important than other foetuses; however, other animals eat other animals and we are a different kind of animal; therefore, we sometimes eat other animals... NO DIFFERENCES.

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

First of all, sorry I haven't been here. I know y'all have probably moved away from this part of the debate, but I might as well respond to the refutations of my points.

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Originally posted by Fuzzies:

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You see, you said that individual developments in the human body DON'T INFLUENCE ANY ESSENTIAL QUALITIES OF PERSONHOOD.

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No. No, I did not.

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Here you go:

"In a debate like this the reproductive organs have little bearing as they don't influence any essential qualities of personhood..."

Your words.

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Before we can go down your SLED road, you need to give us:

+ A reason why foetuses should be preserved prior to becoming conscious and sensitive.

+ A clear definition of 'personhood'.

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Sure.

1. Fetuses should be preserved because they are JUST AS HUMAN AS PEOPLE WHO ARE OUTSIDE THE WOMB. Is it right to murder a 5-year-old? No? Then why is it right to kill a baby inside the womb? Please refer to my SLED acronym for the reasons why I think fetuses really ARE human.

2. Personhood? Essentially, the fetus, in its earliest stages of development, from the time that the sperm reacts with the egg and creates the beginnings of a human is what gives someone their personhood. Is that clear enough for you?

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put." -Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by Topgun:
Yes we did have a miscomunication....
It's cool.

But a basketball is of course round and that there is a fact proven... That is not logic, but logic is saying that all different kinds of balls come in all different shapes. If you say logicaly basketballs are round then you are leaving a place for arguements because you are saying maybe, not in putting facts.

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

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Ahhh, symantecs.

Dispose with what I said about the basketball. That was merely an attempt to explain my meaning. What I'm asking you to do is point out what part of my initial argument actually HAS ROOM for empirical evidence. Because, right now, what I am saying is that the SLED acronym's truth is intuitively obvious; it is self-evident. SHOW ME WHAT PART OF MY ARGUMENT I NEED EVIDENCE FOR, BECAUSE I OBVIOUSLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WANT FROM ME.

And please understand: the Caps don't mean I'm angry. They're just for emphasis.

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put." -Winston Churchill

I don't have a ton of time right this moment, I just want to point one thing out:

"In a debate like this the reproductive organs have little bearing as they don't influence any essential qualities of personhood..."

My words.

I said that the reproductive organs have little bearing on qualities of personhood. If you read my posts again, I have listed several organs that do have an important bearing on personhood. Don't cherry pick, how about you re-read the whole sentence I wrote, without cutting the second half off:

"In a debate like this the reproductive organs have little bearing as they don't influence any essential qualities of personhood, whereas because personhood is traditionally defined by consciousness, self-awareness and other traits created when the brain and sensory organs interact, whether or not those organs function has a very real bearing on the foetus' ethic status."

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1. Fetuses should be preserved because they are JUST AS HUMAN AS PEOPLE WHO ARE OUTSIDE THE WOMB. Is it right to murder a 5-year-old? No? Then why is it right to kill a baby inside the womb? Please refer to my SLED acronym for the reasons why I think fetuses really ARE human.

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So explain to me why 'genetically human' things are automatically people? Why do we confer them the rights of a person? What properties do they have that command such value?

[This message was edited by Fuzzies on 03-11-08 at 09:37 PM.]

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Dispose with what I said about the basketball. That was merely an attempt to explain my meaning. What I'm asking you to do is point out what part of my initial argument actually HAS ROOM for empirical evidence. Because, right now, what I am saying is that the SLED acronym's truth is intuitively obvious; it is self-evident. SHOW ME WHAT PART OF MY ARGUMENT I NEED EVIDENCE FOR, BECAUSE I OBVIOUSLY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WANT FROM ME.

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You need proof along with Logic.. What I want from you is proof that foetus are as human as we are within a week or a month. Proof not logic...

For example, this is something you would say.. "Is it right to murder a 5-year-old? No? Then why is it right to kill a baby inside the womb?" Don't try and deny it either because it is what you said 1 post ago... lol.. We need to know how it is similar to killing a 5 year old who has lived life... How is it similar to killing a foefus who has lived no life... We need these things in order to prove that foetus are humans...

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

So explain to me why 'genetically human' things are automatically people? Why do we confer them the rights of a person? What properties do they have that command such value?

And while the boys answer this..... you tell us why 'consciousness' is effectively the 'soul' of a human? What are the properties that trump other dimensions of being human in the right to live?

Emeraldeyes, first off I am going to guess that you are a woman due to your post on the transexaul topic; however, what I want to tell you is that it takes your egg too form a pregnancy. It takes a mans seed to form a pregnancy and without either one, you cannot make a human child. Both together form a child and this child starts out to be a tissue.. Not a full form of a human but human parts such as your egg and your man's seed. Human on those facts.. A while back, the MS13 or MS16 gang had cut open a pregnant woman, but they got off with killing the tissue; however, the woman's death only put them in jail for some years because they could not prove the murder of the woman on them completely. How can you put someone in jail for this kind of crime when the world don't consider foetus humans.

Just a question, not a disagreement or anything...

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

Topgun. (Yes I am a woman) I support your argument fully. The human journey begins at conception.

I'm mainly watching the thread regress and totter as usual under the author of confusion and illusion... Fuzzies. Since it is he that demands explanations and does not reciprocate, I'm calling for its immediate redressing.

'Consciousness', separates material from a 'person', he says. But it's an interesting exercise to scroll back through his posts on this thread, and note that not once has he offered an argument as to why consciousness is the the inception point of human rights. Not once has he explained the function and practical implications of 'consciousness' for humanity. I wonder why? Deflecting and dodging. Illusion and confusion. It's all working like a charm but come on Fuzzies, give us something to debate. Who knows. You might be on to something. So tell us.... Why is 'consciousness' the point we confer the rights of a person to a human? What properties does it have that commands such value? What are the specific implications of 'consciousness' for humanity as a whole that make it the trump card?