Beacon wrote:

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A christian is defined as someone who accepts the Christ as his/her savior.

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... A clichéd phrase that's pretty devoid of understanding in the 21st century: "accept the Christ as his/her savior." First, if my memory serves me correctly, there's no such phrase in Scripture; it was popularized by pragmatic preachers like Charles Finney who presumed men have a neutral, unbiased will in moral affairs; see http://www.founders.org/FJ09/article4_fr.html .

What does that mean... "accept"? Hint: intellectual, cerebral assent it is not. If anything, NT Scripture calls men and women to "repent" (iow, they are not in the driver's seat of deciding their destiny but called to surrender to a sovereign Authority).

So, to begin, whatever "Christian" means should probably be hammered out with some specificity and biblicity (I think I coined a new word). Hint: Christ = Messiah = anointed one. The term "messiah" is not used exclusively of Jesus. One can go back to the Aaronic priesthood where oil was poured upon priests to anoint them for a special intercessory purpose, separate from the other priests and Hebrew tribes. Kings like David were "messiahed" with oil to indicate they were chosen to rule the nation.

Lucifer is referred to as the "messiahed" cherub (cherubim are a class of incorporeal angels) who was thrown out of Heaven's presence for his pride (Ezekial 28: 14-17). As the gatekeeper to the throne of Adonai, his messiahed status set him apart.

So, given the history of "messiah"/christ, one must approach the idea of "what is a Christian?" carefully. No biblical Christian today is going to attach his 'christ-likeness' to Satan nor the Jerusalem temple; that nomenclature "christian" only came into existence after Jesus the Nazarene died in 30 CE and was resurrected out of all the dead, once for all. Again, if my memory serves me, I believe "christian" was first attached to followers of Jesus by his enemies; it was meant as a pejorative term, but christians embraced the name joyfully as indicating they were adjectives to Jesus' greater noun.

The anonymous rabbi of Letter to the Hebrews, written shortly before Jerusalem's destruction in 70 CE, argues that "the Son" (whom he identifies as Jesus in 2:9) was better than Moses, Joshua, Abraham, and angels. His entire monograph is an apologetic about Jesus' unique messiahed-ness.

In days gone by, God spoke in many and varied ways to the Fathers through the prophets. But now, in the acharit-hayamim [last days], he has spoken to us through his Son, to whom he has given ownership of everything and through whom he created the universe. This Son is the radiance of the Sh'khinah, the very expression of God's essence, upholding all that exists by his powerful word; and after he had through himself, made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of HaG'dulah BaMromim [euphemism for YHWH).

And again, when God brings his Firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him." (qtd. Psalm 97:7)

Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says,

"... and who makes his angels winds
and his servants fiery flames"; (qtd. Psm. 104:4)

but to the Son, he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever;
your rule your Kingdom with a scepter of equity;
you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed [aka 'messiahed'] you
with the oil of joy in preference to your companions." (qtd. Psm. 45:7-8 {6-7}) ~ Hebrews 1:1-3; 6-9, Complete Jewish Bible, my emph.

Notice who is messiahed in the passage above. Notice how he is addressed ("O God"). Notice how whatever this messiahship entails, it separates him completely from his companions, the angels. To understand Christ -- and by extension christians -- one must study his biblically recorded life, self-proclaimed identity, destiny, words, ethics, motivations.

Christians are "messiahed" for a divine purpose (living in the here and now with eternal verities in view, not succumbing to a current age's fleeting zeitgeist).

Given all that, a man or woman who surrenders to Messiah Jesus as Sovereign of his life will accept Jesus' defense of the creation couple (exclusive monogamy between husband/wife) as the godly ideal. Jesus always appealed in discussions about marriage and divorce not to Israel's foremost prophet Moses but to the Creation account (see Mark 10, for example).

Like Christ, godly christians will also defend the Creation precedent. Unlike Christ, christians still live with sarx, that "fifth columnist" that drags and pulls us to live selfishly, rebelliously, autonomously, until at death we are delivered from our Adamic bent. Christians can and will break the Creation ideal; what they won't do is justify and rationalize it as good: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in act, sin is lawlessness. But you [believers] know that he [Jesus] appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. ~ 1 John 3:4-4-6, NIV

What christians will do is not wrap themselves in self-deceptions and self-denials (at least not for long, b/c God has promised He chastises those who bear His Name). The first paragraph of J. Budziszewski's essay The Revenge of Conscience demonstrates how easily we humans, apart from God's grace, live with self-deceptions:

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The list of what we are required to approve is growing ever longer. Consider just the domain of sexual practice. First we were to approve sex before marriage, then without marriage, now against marriage. First with one, then with a series, now with a crowd. First with the other sex, then with the same. First between adults, then between children, then between adults and children. The last item has not been added yet, but will be soon: you can tell from the change in language, just as you can tell the approach of winter from the change in the color of leaves. As any sin passes through its stages from temptation, to toleration, to approval, its name is first euphemized, then avoided, then forgotten. A colleague tells me that some of his fellow legal scholars call child molestation “intergenerational intimacy”: that’s euphemism. A good-hearted editor tried to talk me out of using the term “sodomy”: that’s avoidance. My students don’t know the word “fornication” at all: that’s forgetfulness.

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The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead
Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor

I applaud you Airedale. Very well put.

girl warrior

Edit: Please save comments like this for private topics or emails (they get us off topic). Thanks!

[This message was edited by Katelyn on 02-23-06 at 06:18 PM.]

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No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

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Either you interpret that literally and heaven is a completely barren wasteland, or this passage simply supports the argument that homosexual people can be Christians if they ask (sincerely) for Jesus' forgiveness.

(This isn't a pentacostal church service, save the clapping for Sunday)

The ontologial
reference of some object is relative to the metalanguage it is translated into.

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Originally posted by Twister:
Either you interpret that literally and heaven is a completely barren wasteland, or this passage simply supports the argument that homosexual people can be Christians if they ask (sincerely) for Jesus' forgiveness.

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Honestly asking for forgiveness implies acknowledging the sinfulness of the act.... so sure, this is what it's all about, what we do with ourselves, not 'who we are'. Repentance and redemption. They draw you closer into the heart of God.

We are all in the eyes of God the same until we throw him aside when it is time to choose. God gives all a second chance and that is not the second chance on earth, but when we die we choose. We are all different, but all get our second chance.

"Glass, China and reputation are easily cracked and never well mended" ---By Benjamin Franklin In honer of his 300th birthday

Two of the most urgent problems in modern society are the issues of gays and atheist. I don't think that a practicing homosexual can be regarded as a born again Christian (in the protestant faith). An atheist is considered as a heathen (heathern) in the southern United States and they are generally prescribed as eternal reprobates within Calvanistic theology.

(If the pen is mightier than the sword then what could be sharper than the word?)

By "modern society", do you mean evangelical christians?

Also, by "problem", do you mean people who are different and should have their liberities sawed down?

If so, then you are right on the spot.

ACLU Execution Watch
*Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA*

If you're using Calvinistic theology, what's there to argue?

Some of us are going to heaven beyond what we do here on Earth, others aren't, no matter how hard they pray or how many needy they feed.

Go ahead! Be gay! Be atheistic!

Who knows, you might just strike it lucky...damn capitalists.

My opinion is based on the book, Chosen by God, By R.C. Sproul, PhD. Sproul is somewhat of a Calvinist. My opinion is also based on a very small paragraph in the Westminster Confession of The Presbyterian Church concerning predestination, circa 1990. The Presbyterain Church is now divided. Since I do not have either of the books then I can't site the exact references at the moment.

Sproul based his opinions largely on the notion that God is sovereign. Since God is sovereign, God chooses who gets to go to heaven through the pearly gates and walk the streets of gold. Those who are chosen are called the elect. If I am not mistaken I think that it was R.C. Sproul who indicated that an atheist is considered an eternal reprobate. Sproul did not raise the issue of being gay but his opionions would lead me to believe he would consider a practicing homosexual to be un-Godly. Since there is nothing within the King James Version that is written to encourage homosexuality then it is my opinion that it is not acceptable.

Just why the issues of homosexuality were not raised in the four gospels remains a mystery to me. Some would agrgue that since Jesus did not openly condemn homosexuals, He left the subject open for debate.

In our neck of the woods, homosexuals are considered to be of bad moral character. If you happen to profess to be a homo then you can forget about winning an election for a public office. The general public will not tolerate such folks to hold an office. Most church going folks do not want anything to do with gays or queer folk. Some elected officials have managed to keep their sexual orinetations in the closet where it belongs.

A few years ago we had a sheriff who was a homosexual. It wasn't common knowledge because he kept it in the closet. He was eventually removed from office because he was charged with sexual assault of jail inmates. He was convicted and sent to prison for a few years. He still maintains that he is innocent. There were three people who testified against him in court. Two of the three people who testified are now dead.

(If the pen is mightier than the sword then what could be sharper than the word?)

Edit: PD, I just moved these responses over from the "Born Rebels" thread as they are more relevant to this topic than the other, so as this thread specifies homosexuals, please leave atheists out of the topic from here on out (obviously you couldn't have known that while posting over there, so I just wanted to call your attention to it here). Thanks a bunch ~ Katelyn

[This message was edited by Katelyn on 03-05-06 at 03:33 PM.]

Homosexuality sin is just like adultery. In God's eyes he loves everyone equally, but he is unable if sin seperates us from Him. I'm not saying that homosexuals can't be saved, I'm saying that if they don't repent and turn from homosexuality, that sin seperates them from God.
In the garden of eden, did God create a man from Adam? NO. He created a WOMAN(Eve)from Adam. God made man for woman and woman for man. He didn't create MAN for MAN or WOMAN for WOMAN. Before homosexuality was accepted, the church shunned any homosexuals and punished them. Our society has it so that it is becoming more openly accepted on television, in music, on the radio, etc. My point is that society has watered it down so much that no one thinks anything of it anymore, and it is as much a sin as any other sin.

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My opinion is based on the book, Chosen by God, By R.C. Sproul, PhD.

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Well, my opinions are based on a book by Sir (Professor) Christopher McMaster, PhD, DPhil, MD, QED of Colophon, son of Parmenides and the only pre-Socratic neo-Platonist (hmm...)

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Homosexuality sin is just like adultery. In God's eyes he loves everyone equally, but he is unable if sin seperates us from Him. I'm not saying that homosexuals can't be saved, I'm saying that if they don't repent and turn from homosexuality, that sin seperates them from God.

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Stop masturbating, having dirty thoughts, getting angry, swearing, getting jealous, inflating your ego, being selfish and so forth; and then I'll consider this argument.

There's a party in heaven and everyone's invited...except for you, you, you and...well, everyone really.

God: So, why isn't there anyone at this party?
Jesus: I think they got a little put off when you said it was 'non-alcoholic'.

The ontologial
reference of some object is relative to the metalanguage it is translated into.

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In God's eyes he loves everyone equally, but he is unable if sin seperates us from Him.

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Gee...a real infinite deity you're talking about here...

Twister,

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Stop masturbating, having dirty thoughts, getting angry, swearing, getting jealous, inflating your ego, being selfish and so forth; and then I'll consider this argument.

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Sir (Professor) Christopher McMaster once told me that whether someone is hypocritical regarding their claims, it can have no bearing on the truth of those claims. Surely you can condemn someone for hypocrisy, but the Prof told me that you cannot logically use hypocrisy as a justification for rejecting someone’s claims.

Tsk Tsk. I expected more from you, Twisty.

:kindly thanks Sir (Professor) Christopher McMaster for encouraging me to take a first year logic course:

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Someone the size of God.

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Before homosexuality was accepted, the church shunned any homosexuals and punished them.

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Quite right, good show! But long, long, long before the church shunned homosexuals, homosexuality was accepted.

Reminder: the topic is "Can Gay People Really Be Called Christians". Please make sure your posts are reflecting this, as additional off-topic posts will be deleted. Thanks.

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"The sleep of reason produces monsters." ~Francisco de Goya

Gay people can be christian, because christianity is not about judgment. It's about choice and if a gay person can make that choice then consider them christians.

Losing a cousin you have known your whole life, is like losing a brother and a friend at the sametime.
-- Topgun
In memery of Jake Gesin

THe C of E no I believe allows gay bishops. Are they not christian? Surley they must be and there Christians can be gay.

Well, I deleted my own post, so if it shows up twice somewhere, sorry about that.

Anywho, I haven't seen a biblical quote posted showing where in the bible it states that homosexuality is a sin. Well some people may use this quote

9Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals. 1 Corinthians 6:9 (New Living Translation)

Going further back in time, you would find this in the Bible.

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate , nor abusers of themselves with mankind,1 Corinthians 6:9 (King James Version)

It is important to note that effeminacy is character trait of a male showing femininity, unmanliness, womanliness, weakness, softness or delicacy, which contradicts traditional masculine, male gender roles. Effeminacy comes from the Latin, ex which is "out" and femina which means woman; it basically means to be like a woman. The Latin term is mollities, meaning "softness".

A Greek word for effeminate is kinaidos (or cinaedus), a man "whose most salient feature was a supposedly "feminine" love of being sexually penetrated by other men." (Winkler, 1990) However, "cinaedus is not actually anchored in that specific sexual practice....It refers instead to a man who has an identity as gender deviant." (Williams, 1999) "A cinaedus is a man who fails to live up to traditional standards of masculine comportment. Indeed, the word's etymology suggests no direct connection to any sexual practice. Rather, borrowed from Greek kinaidos (which may itself have been a borrowing from a language of Asia Minor), it primarily signifies an effeminate dancer who entertained his audiences with a tympanum or tambourine in his hand, and adopted a lascivious style, often suggestively wiggling his buttocks in such a way as to suggest anal intercourse....The primary meaning of cinaedus never died out; the term never became a dead metaphor." (Williams, 1999)

A new common day version would say this...
9Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex 1 Corinthians 6:9 (The Message)

The problem with the Greek's twist on Christianity is that the mixture of Greek philosophy, culture and religion was translated into the Bible. In order to go back and see if homosexuality is a sin I would think we would have to go back and get the Aramaic translation down
Here is an Aramaic translation if you can read it.
1 Corinthians 6:9
أَمَا تَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَنْ يَرِثُوا مَلَكُوتَ اللهِ؟ لاَ تَضِلُّوا: فَإِنَّ مَلَكُوتَ اللهِ لَنْ يَرِثَهُ الزُّنَاةُ وَلاَ عَابِدُو الأَصْنَامِ وَلاَ الْفَاسِقُونَ وَلاَ الْمُتَخَنِّثُونَ وَلاَ مُضَاجِعُو الذُّكُورِ
and also the perspective from Ancient Jewish culture of that time. There are single Greek words that only have one meaning, but in Aramaic there could be a word with several different meanings to us (such as the word love for or effeminate for example). It is not to say the Bible is translated incorrectly, it is just the interpretation when read is sometimes taken out of context and can lead to incorrect conclusions. A good example is the view on Women (another topic though, but the Jewish intention of the view on Women and the Greek view on Women are very different, and since our culture widely accepts the Greek interpretations of the Scriptures, we get a whole new way of thinking, culture and society).

A homosexual person that acts on their urges is a sinner, but not simply because that person is homosexual, but because we are called to obey the law of the land, and partaking in the marriage covenant outside of a legal marriage is sin in itself; not because of the person’s sexual preference, but because that person broke the law. So in conclusion, Yes, I think a homosexual can be a Christian; they are just struggling to be a good servant just like any other Christian.

Shenanigans! Shenanigans!

I call shenanigans!

And hypocrisy!

I know of many Christians who openly live with an unmarried partner, whom they make no secret about having sex with, and in spite of church dogma insisting that this is a sinful state to live in, they continue to attend church without people asking questions on web forums about whether they can even be considered "Christian" or not.

Yet in the case of gay people, their sexual behavior (even if they are mainly abstaining from sex and doing their best to live according to the Bible) is seen as sufficiently shocking that people wonder whether a church should even welcome their presence.

It makes me sick, frankly.

Any Church which wants to take the entire contents of Leviticus as absolute law, and make the men grow their ear-locks out and women cover their heads indoors and forbid people wearing clothing woven from two different kinds of cloth... That is entirely their prerogative. Most Christians are not that legalistic about old Hebrew Law, but some are.

HOWEVER... If you eat pork and shellfish and choose not to circumcise your male children, explaining it all away with a hand-wave while talking about "living in Grace", then you've got no leg to stand on telling a gay person that they are less faithful to God than you are. Period.

If a gay person has embraced Christ as his or her savior, yet believes that homosexuality is not sinful, and if they come to the gates of heaven and learn that they were wrong about that all along... Well, it's lucky for them that their salvation hangs on their faith in Christ, and not whether they agree with every last article of religion their Church pushes on them.

The Bible says that it is wrong. no doubt on it. Christianity is not just about saying "oh i accepted christ im good", it just doesn't work that way. Now noone is perfect, sin does live in the world, but if you do not turn from a gay lifestyle then you are not a christian. God will judge you on your life and how you lived and if you live a gay lifestyle then you cannot be a christian. Sorry. Yes God does forgive sin 100 + plus times over but just because he does doesn't mean we can live a bad lifestyle. A person can get redemption but i don't think it'll work unless you mean it. If a gay person turns from that lifestyle and works every day to be a christian person then yes that person will be called a Christian, but if not, then no. That is the plain deal of it all. If a person makes a choice to be gay then that person will be judged according to his or her choice.

Cowards die many times before their death;
The valiant never taste death but once.

William Shakespeare