Dear Ladon,

I wish to thank you again for your kindness. I see from your post that there were several questions that I asked that you did not respond to. What was your reason, Ladon?

You felt compelled to state:

Out of all of that nonsense you still have not disproven these two main premises:

1. As long as the mind/brain is preserved, there is a possibility that it might one day be retrieved

2. As the only alternative is non-existence, it is logical to be cryonically preserved after death.

Ladon, I did not disprove anything. I only raise doubt as to your logic. Did you disprove that you were going to have a sex change operation and marry the Prof? You didn't even apply yourself to the question. Why not?

You audaciously state that:

As long as the mind/brain is preserved, there is a possibility that it might one day be retrieved

Unfortunately, you have given no proof whatsoever that the mind/brain is preserved for hundreds of years in frozen nitrogen. In fact, the evidence you have given is strongly debated by those working in the field itself. Oh my. Did not the Egyptians say that as long as the body survived there was the certainty of immortality. How dare you belittle the Egyptians when you show no more evidence than they?

Of course, the final question that you raise is one I have not dealt with before. You said:

2. As the only alternative is non-existence, it is logical to be cryonically preserved after death.

You assume that the only alternative is non-existence. Actually, most religions suggest a much different outcome. Where did you convince us of your logic? I think you must be assuming some things here which will not bode well in your "logical argument". Of course, that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You have called the Egyptians' beliefs "ridiculous". Yet, you have not explained why they are so. Will you now explain why many religions think differently than you?

For us to believe what you say, we have to accept your belief system and all that infers. I am afraid that most of us can't do that. I am sorry if it hurts your feelings but that is the way logic works. Go figure.

Your last famous statement (at least I hope it is the last) says:

All you have been saying is that, "We cant do it now!" "We cant do it now!" "We cant do it now!" This is not what we are talking about.

No, Ladon, what we are talking about is that no one may be able to do it forever. In "forever" the Egyptians may prove correct. Can you not grasp that simple concept? Why is only your opinion allowed to go into "forever"?

Of course, that is my opinion, I could be wrong, but I doubt as wrong as Ladon!

I can trace my lineage back to King Lear's fool, so it is genetic.
Nick

quote:

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Unfortunately, you have given no proof whatsoever that the mind/brain is preserved for hundreds of years in frozen nitrogen.

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I just thought it was accepted that anything put into liquid nitrogen cannot decay because no reactions can take place. Reactions do happen and the body does decay but its so small that it would take an extrodinary long period of time for there to be any show of decay. You arent going to be pleased unless I drag up by Bio-chem notes, are you?

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In fact, the evidence you have given is strongly debated by those working in the field itself.

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Who? Just because there is a voice of opposition doesnt mean cryonics cannot work.

quote:

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Actually, most religions suggest a much different outcome. Where did you convince us of your logic?

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Go to any religious thread here and take up metaphysics. Also if you are going to suggest other means of after death existence the burden of proof is on you.

quote:

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You have called the Egyptians' beliefs "ridiculous".

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Egyptian mumification included means that would remove necessary parts of the human body that would be very terminal in an type of ressurection methods. I was simply just getting to the point that discussing egyptian mumification any further would be a false analogy. Mumification and cryonics are quite different. Accepting that the brain is the center of personality and memory, did the egyptians remove the brain, wouldnt this assure that they are never coming back? Unless you want to show how the brain is not such.



Also it benefits the world that I over others do cryonics so as to further the culinary experience for generations to come.

QED

*I* shall come again!

Cheers,

------------------------------

http://ladon7.tripod.com


"I find a recipe is only a theme, which an intelligent cook can play each time with a variation."-Madame Benoit

"A gourmet who thinks of calories is like a tart who looks at her watch."-James Beard

"A cook can be in the kitchen of a chef, but a cook is not the chef" -Julia Child

"Any man who thinks that sex is better than food, has not eaten in my kitchen."- F.A.R.

Cant find bio chem notes so I will just use this.

Research done about brain preservation

Cheers,

*I* shall come again!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

Ladon7.Tripod.com

Did somebody chryonically freeze this debate and then resurrect it? Because I was almost sure it was dead... Kudos to you, Ladon; I rarely agree with you, but I can't help but respect your perseverance.

SilkyBoy: 'perserverance' is too nice of a word. I would put in a subsititue, but as it would simply get edited anyway, I'll leave it at that.

True darkness, Im more like a badger on PCP guarding my kill.

Cheers,

*I* shall come again!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

Ladon7.Tripod.com

I cant seem to stop beating this horse.

Surgeon left without a critique of my last argument. Perhaps if i instigate it he will post.

*I* shall come again,

Cheers!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

"I love my Quoteland and you should too!" F.A.R.

My Website

Yes, Ladon I walked away from that dead horse you are beating. Hadn't you noticed that it was starting to smell? Kind of like week old unrefrigerated pate'. Unfortunately, the horse was not frozen soon enough after death to preserve it.

Your future diner,
Nick

I can trace my lineage back to King Lear's fool, so it is genetic.
Nick

Soo...we win?

*I* shall come again,

Cheers!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

"I love my Quoteland and you should too!" F.A.R.

A rule to life,"Only in victory is there fortune."-F.A.R.

My Website

I change my position.

I am not saying that cryonics will work. But if the damage to the body is minimal, and nanotechnology could, in theory, repair the damage...maybe it is worth trying. After all, any chance at life is better than no chance.

Yuck who wants to be frozen and brought back. . . have you ever seen what defrosted meat looks like?? Ugh.

Dont look where you fall; look where you tripped

Moonie please read through the debate to answer your question.

It may be long and somewhat combative but your answeres are there.

Katelyn

*I* shall come again,

Cheers!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

"I love my Quoteland and you should too!" F.A.R.

A rule to life,"Only in victory is there fortune."-F.A.R.

My Website

OK Faust I read the ENTIRE thing (Damn long-winded, waspish, cat-fight that it was)

I even went to a good portion of the websites posted.

I have a few questions that weren't completly answered that the websites brought up and before I jump into the lion's den of a debate it seems like this is I figured I would ask. . .

1)The Molecular Repair of the Brain

How can we possibly get past ALL of the dammaging effects that are listed? I mean there is freezing damage, ice, concentration effects, denaturing,intracellular freezing,ischemia,and many other things that were mentioned. . .is it possible and/or feasible that we will be able to isolate all of these things and combat their effects??

2)At Alcor's FAQ page they mentioned that the chemicals they use are toxic to cellular metabolism. To me it seems that they are basically not only waiting for a way to combat the afore mentioned things in question #1 but also their own frezzing process. Q: Why isn't vitrification reversible now?
What happens if the technology becomes available to reanimate these people only to find that they cant because of the cryoprotectant that was used??

3) After looking over the web sites I can still not find the actual process that is used. Do they take a person still on life support to keep the brain alive and then go freeze them while they are alive? Do they just toss a dead body over into a vat of nitrogen? Why does the process take 6 months to a year?

I find all of this excruciatingly interesting if not a tad bit gruesome.

I also thoroughly enjoyed something else I found on Alcor's webiste. . ..

quote:

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Affodable Immortality

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this was right next to the page on "suspension funding"
I imagine this being said in a lady's voice almost on a sigh with a loving tone. . . .

Dont look where you fall; look where you tripped

moonpie: Welcome to fun and fabulous world of anti-cryonics. I imagine we'll be getting to know each other over a debate that has endured the trials of time. Hopefully you'll remember my warm reception when you're doing research on nanotech at four in the morning.

That being said, I appreciate your points, as I'm sure the opposition does

Katelyn: Y tu, Brute?

Thank you for your welcome. . .

I am attempting to wait for the pro-cryo's to answer my questions before going any further. . .I'll give it til' tommorrow as I am about to log off.

As far as dear Katelyn is concerned, I am of a mind that she has had a life altering event as in a good portion of her posts she has not only turned her back on her former religion but also embraced many other philosophies she used to argue vehemently against. . .I am sincere when I say I hope she is OK and nothing too traumatic has occured. (I hope that was not too personal if so I deeeeeeeeply apologize)

Dont look where you fall; look where you tripped

Darkness:
Do I sense a little hostility?

moonpie:
Haha, life-altering event? Ah, so amused! I will not stray from the topic to answer you here, e-mail me if you are truly curious.

However, I wish you luck on this thread, with Ladon and Euphorion as opposition, you are going to need it.

quote:

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freezing damage, ice, concentration effects, denaturing,intracellular freezing,ischemia,and many other things that were mentioned. . .is it possible and/or feasible that we will be able to isolate all of these things and combat their effects??

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It may seem like snake oil, but as nanotechnology is by physical laws likely to do what folks like Drexler say it will. So yes it would work if created.

quote:

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At Alcor's FAQ page they mentioned that the chemicals they use are toxic to cellular metabolism.

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The glycerol cryoprotectant solution is chemical cocktail designed to do several things that are needed. There is an anti-coagulant, something that decreases isachemic damage, sugary solution that keeps the body metabolising even after death, etc.

The purpose of this solution is to solve all those problems when a body starts to die. Things start shutting down and stop working. And a part of that is that the solution must perfuse the cell membrane and expel as much water as possible so as to decrease ice damage. By pushing out all the water the cell can no longer metabolise. I agree its a stupid way to approach it.

An analogy: We are in the 1830's for flight aviation. We know that the plane needs to get in the air but we have no idea how to do it nor how fast its going to fall down.

quote:

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What happens if the technology becomes available to reanimate these people only to find that they cant because of the cryoprotectant that was used?

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Well Alcorian cryonicists are more concerned with cell structure than the chemical damage done to cells. Im more concerned with the chemical damage. For at least I assume that memory in the brain at its base is dependent on chemicals. I agree cryoprotectants are the sledgehammer to all compiter problems and its not effective at what all cryonicists promise.

quote:

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After looking over the web sites I can still not find the actual process that is used. Do they take a person still on life support to keep the brain alive and then go freeze them while they are alive

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No the legalities prevent that from happening. The person must be pronounced clinically dead by a doctor before the process can be started.

quote:

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Do they just toss a dead body over into a vat of nitrogen? Why does the process take 6 months

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No there is a long process of cooling the body to low temputures before they are put into liquid nitrogen. And it isnt a vat, its a dewar.

The application process takes anywhere from 1 month to longer. It depends on how much of the paperwork you get done when you go to your respective cryonics place.

Cryonic suspension is affordable. Life insurance costs for someone at my age is next to nil.

quote:

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Katelyn: Y tu, Brute?

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isnt it "et tu, Brute?"?

*I* shall come again,

Cheers!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

"I love my Quoteland and you should too!" F.A.R.

A rule to life,"Only in victory is there fortune."-F.A.R.

My Website

Thank you Ladon, you answered my questions quite well. Tis' appreciated. . .

I am having a problem understanding why the cost varies from one cryongenics "holding" facility to the next. . .it all seems a tad bit hoo-doo-ey to me. I mean we have Alcor charging $120,000 for "affordable immortality, and then we have The Cryonics Institute charging $28,000 - $35,000 depending on whether you want to pay monthly dues or not.
Cryonics Institute

Why such a STUPENDOUS difference in price?? I mean it may be peanuts if you start early enough but even the website does not give a good reason for the price variations. . .

Is the TOTAL success/failure of Cryogenics/Cryonics riding on the success/failure of nanotechnology?? Does the whole process hinge on:
Hypothetically possible A(successful cryonic preservation of an entire human) + Hypothetically possible B(nanotechnology sophisticated enough to repair the entire human body and the contents there-of)+Hypothetically possible C(medical technology advanced enough to remove toxins from a cellular level ie.- cryoprotectant)= Hypothetically possible D(reanimated human - living, breathing, talking sh ting, but possibly not F ucking)

This all seems a tad bit "IFFY" to me.

Also on the "Cryogenics Institute" web-site they state -

quote:

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Q: How do you know that cryonic suspension is pain-free? Doesn't it feel cold? And if I'm in cryonic sleep, couldn't I have nightmares?

A: At liquid nitrogen temperatures, molecular activity is so negligible it virtually comes to a halt. So when people are in cryonic suspension, their brains simply do not function at all. Pain, and sensations of cold, and dreaming -- these are all accompanied by extensive and identifiable brain activity. Where there is no brain activity, there is no sensation. And no pain, and no dreaming, and certainly no nightmares.

Cryonic suspension can't hurt. Sick and dying, you close your eyes; and we expect that when you open them again, a subjective moment later, you'll be healthy and well and in the future.

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But they don't REALLY know this. We have yet to figure out how the brain TRULY works so how can they be 100% sure that all the popsicle people aren't having horrendous,terrible,psychotic nightmares? Or if not TRUE nightmares flashes of consciousness that come and go year after year after year. . . and this is not "Non sequitor" or "blather" it can't be disproven

I think I have found something that would at the very very least be worth a merry read for you.. .

For the Love of Entropy

It may be science fiction but then so is reanimation of frozen humans at this point. . .

Dont look where you fall; look where you tripped

quote:

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am having a problem understanding why the cost varies from one cryongenics "holding" facility to the next. . .it all seems a tad bit hoo-doo-ey to me. I mean we have Alcor charging $120,000 for "affordable immortality, and then we have The Cryonics Institute charging $28,000 - $35,000 depending on whether you want to pay monthly dues or not.

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Alcor charges 120k for a full body suspension. Their neuro suspension costs 50k I believe.

The difference between Alcor and Cryonics Institute is that Alcor puts more money away for patient care trust. Cryonics Institute doesnt.

quote:

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Is the TOTAL success/failure of Cryogenics/Cryonics riding on the success/failure of nanotechnology?? Does the whole process hinge on:
Hypothetically possible A(successful cryonic preservation of an entire human) + Hypothetically possible B(nanotechnology sophisticated enough to repair the entire human body and the contents there-of)+Hypothetically possible C(medical technology advanced enough to remove toxins from a cellular level ie.- cryoprotectant)= Hypothetically possible D(reanimated human - living, breathing, talking sh ting, but possibly not )

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Yup its all based upon that. Except, we are working on, even me, a method in which to avoid using cryoproctectants. There is promise, some what, with high pressure vitrification.

However, over all the other possibilities cryonics offers the best chances for survival.

quote:

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But they don't REALLY know this. We have yet to figure out how the brain TRULY works so how can they be 100% sure that all the popsicle people aren't having horrendous,terrible,psychotic nightmares? Or if not TRUE nightmares flashes of consciousness that come and go year after year after year. . . and this is not "Non sequitor" or "blather" it can't be disproven

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Well it isnt non sequitor rather you just arent aware of the physics behind cryonics.

When material is placed in extreme low temperatures they do not move. Molecules do not move, therefore cells cannot metabolise. Neurons cant fire. Hence people cant think or dream while in liquid nitrogen.

*I* shall come again,

Cheers!

"Anyone who thinks that sex is better than food has not eaten in my kitchen." - F.A.R.

"I love my Quoteland and you should too!" F.A.R.

A rule to life,"Only in victory is there fortune."-F.A.R.

My Website

[This message was edited by Trader on 11-01-02 at 05:24 AM.]

I just can't see myself placing myself into indefinate suspension while I wait on someone to figure out how to thaw me out correctly.

Makes me feel like a would-be Thanksgiving Turkey waiting for a Thanksgiving that may never come.

Also, I am not a cryo-specialists but I have read a goodly portion on this subject, and even more since coming to this thread. I realize that there is no brain function, ie: neurons firing or cells metabolizing at that low temperature but since we are not fully aware of how the brain works on a sub-conscious level how can we be 100% sure no thought processes on one level or the other may or may not continue?

I am a big sci-fi reader.. .try reading Stephen King's short story "The Jaunt" it doesnt have ANYTHING to do with cryo but it does have to do with someone who is "awake" for "years" figuratively and the possible consequences.

Cryo just seems like a wing and a prayer to me at this point in time. . .maybe another 20 years of research. . .too many variables, if's, when's, could's, should's, and maybe's.

Dont look where you fall; look where you tripped