After a couple of thousands years, I have seen many greatest minds turn away from religion in general. I am not saying smart people don’t believe in God – many do. Of course not every religion believe in God but many do so I will occasionally mention ‘God’.
When it comes to God, this past 100 years or so many people and some of the brightest minds are rejecting God than any other period since the system became the norm. Sir Isaac Newton declared that everything he observed was the work of God. Yet less than 300 years after Newton's death the top minds in the world are wondering if there is even a place for God in our universe.
We now know so much more than we used to and that’s why many are fear the day that we know too much because then the beliefs in which they have so much invested will be in jeopardy. And then what’s going to happen?
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Just look at General Discussion Forum, “What do you think about atheist”? … “What do you think about the Christians”… bla blab la …. a lot of fights …. A.K.A. – my religion is the best syndrome. If there is no religion thread, there’ll be less fight. It’s the same with the world – how many lives have been lost because of religion?
Religion books that were written thousands years ago can’t really understand or explain many of today’s problems – like spam e-mails, internet porn protection or cloning. Of course the human nature is the same so we can relate but I foresee the tendency of us fading from religion in the future. The connection wouldn’t really be strong like it used to.
…………………………………………………………………………………………….. Why do we need religion?
To tell us what is right and wrong? If there were no God, would you rape a child or murder people for fun? If you agree then you are not really a good person to begin with. We all know what is right and wrong – why do we need religion to tell us what is right and wrong? Of course we also have laws for that so we don’t need it anymore.
To support us? Of course … this is a big one. To make sure that you have something that’ll always be there for you and love you (and your love ones) unconditionally… like a grown-up imaginary friend.
This one I can’t debate with too much. I think this is the only valid reason why you need religion (beside meeting chics)
Personally I think life goes on … s**t happens …. face it!
"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor" But always remember - it's still not a premarital sex if you don't plan on getting married
...because we're alienated individuals, and the gaps in our social system need filling with an infinite concept of human ideals?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Im a Million Different People From One Day to the Next ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
I don't believe in God. Don't get me wrong. I have read: Mahabharat with gita, Ramayan, some Vedas, some upanishad. Also bible and Qur'an with understanding. Some I have read several times. But, I don't belong to any temple, church or mosque. From any of these books I have not found any scientific or a mathematical proof of God. I know that God is not physical or material. But that's not a point. Bear in a mind that religion is a faith not a God. After attending a college for several years one can get a degree of certificate. But after attending (so many years) church, temple or mosque you are not going to get "GOD."
My teacher in 7th grade use to tell us: Doesn't matter what religion you practice, no religion will teach you, to murder, to steal, to lie, to be dishonest. That's a religion. After reading all these books I still remember those words. And this day it is still true.
Name of God; As I see it: Krishna, Krsta, Krista (christ) is a Sanskrit word meaning attraction. Allah has no plural form, it's a title name (like a president). So 'President' in general understanding is the post. But still, one who occupies the post, his name gets that title.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Serenity of mind, good-heartedness, purity of nature, self-control—this is called mental austerity. ~Gitopanishad.
Posts: 4232 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 01-29-03
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Im a Million Different People From One Day to the Next ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
Religion served its purpose. It helped to control the uneducated masses. I do not think it is really necessary at this point and time, which is why it is now fading out. I do not think the world would be a better place with out religion. I believe that we got through the beggining stages of our social and technological stages of development (arguably economic as well with religion being a primary economic source, much like the large nations are now) due to religion manipulating the masses in to good little citizens and going against our natural insticts. I mean, really, it is in our natural insticts to be violent, to sleep with everyone we get a chance to, to take what ever we want, ect. That is why they had to make laws against these things and teach us for milleniums that these things were "bad" and we STILL do these things. With out the basic moral boundries that religion put in to place, we could not have developed a society or culture and would not have advanced much father than the apes.
IMO though, religion currently does more harm than good now. If everyone stopped having their beliefs, the world would probably be a better place, although possibly with a little more crime.
Posts: 659 | Location: yokosuka, Japan | Registered: 01-01-05
quote:Would the world today be a better place if there were no religion at all?
You are asking for a moral (aka religious) judgment.
quote:Just look at General Discussion Forum, “What do you think about atheist”? … “What do you think about the Christians”… bla blab la …. a lot of fights …. A.K.A. – my religion is the best syndrome. If there is no religion thread, there’ll be less fight. It’s the same with the world – how many lives have been lost because of religion?
The inferences to be drawn being ...
(1) strife/fighting is wrong (a judgment) (2) lives lost [death/dying] in battle are bad, and (a judgment) (3) "many lives lost" is worse than few or no lives lost (a judgment)
Sez who? (Authority question) How do you know? (Epistomology question)
quote:After a couple of thousands years, I have seen many greatest minds turn away from religion in general. I am not saying smart people don’t believe in God – many do. Of course not every religion believe in God but many do so I will occasionally mention ‘God’.
Sane men and women (mentally retarded, insane, unconscious, infants etc. having a religious capacity but not the ability) are hardwired to be "religious." Non-theists like secular humanists make moral judgments all over the place and hope to persuade and/or impose their POV on others. Check out DF thread "Animal Rights vs Human Rights" where Apokryphos' final post there remained unchallenged (b/c it's true):
Theists, of course, attempt to convince/impose their POV as well. You might as well have asked the debate question, "Would the world be a better place if all humans agreed to cease copulating amongst themselves and instead deferred to "greatest minded" scientists to use petri dishes to create future human beings?"
Ain't gonna happen under the sun. Ever. I don't care if encyclopedias were published in the 21st century and ads were aired nonstop on tv about the disadvantages to "old fashioned" sexual intercourse, if such propaganda flew in the face of man's hardwiring, he couldn't be merely educated by "great minds'" arguments into denying the 'wiring' that exists (let alone that it shouldn't be heeded).
Man is hardwired by the Creator to be religious. To make "better" and "worse" judgments. To justify. To rationalize. To deify (if not the Creator than self... aka "Invictus" by William Ernest Henley [1849-1903]).
quote:We now know so much more than we used to and that’s why many are fear the day that we know too much because then the beliefs in which they have so much invested will be in jeopardy. And then what’s going to happen?
And a devil's advocate might argue 21st century man knows far less about human depravity than other eras. I've talked to professing Xians who've expressed complete bewilderment at the idea of self-examination of one's motivations -- their ignorance of God's Word (their professed authority) was ironic:
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered (lit., "naked" from Greek gymna) and laid bare** before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. ~ To the Hebrews 4:12-13, NIV a, sermon delivered approx. 35 years after Yeshua's resurrection and 3-5 years before the fall of Jerusalem, 70 CE.
** Regarding the phrase "Laid bare", Greek scholar Kenneth Wuest suggests 3 possible metaphors may be in view: (1) the athlete grasping his opponent by the throat; (2) the bending back of the malefactor's neck and the exposing of his face to the spectators; (3) the drawing back and exposing of the neck of the sacrificial victim at the altar.
One athiest, whom I went out with for drinks occasionally, equated my scrutiny of my motivations (noble? God-honoring?) as "masochistic" b/c his philosophy was "if it feels good, do it" (he reminded me often I was his one failure).
quote:Religion books that were written thousands years ago can’t really understand or explain many of today’s problems – like spam e-mails, internet porn protection or cloning.
Ever thoughtfully read the four gospels in the New Testament? Jesus of Nazareth had a razor-edge understanding of human nature that makes his teachings as relevant today as 2 millennia ago. Why do you think he was so polarizing a figure? Why did some of his contemporaries unjustly slander, betray, despise, hate, whip, beat, laugh at, humiliate, taunt, and finally crucify Rabbi Yeshua on the city garbage heap between two thieves? (Hint: why do we hate the messenger? study the motivations & actions of those who hated Yeshua and you'll understand how his godliness only accentuated their ungodliness.)
quote:Roll Eyes Of course the human nature is the same so we can relate but I foresee the tendency of us fading from religion in the future. The connection wouldn’t really be strong like it used to.
Don't give up your day job to become a prophet, okay? Perhaps what you foresee is a religion that attempts to universalize "there are no transcendent absolutes", which is certainly a plausible possibility given our pc-correct globalism.
quote:Why do we need religion?
We don't need "religion." Religion meaning a formula, dogma, ethical system, institutionalized set of taboos, etc. All chaff and deadness.
Walk up to a mirror and look at your stomach. What do you see? A belly button: the evidence that at one time an umbilical cord connected you to another human being. Your life was dependent upon that cord being viable.
Augustine prayed, "Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Thee." Our hearts bear the scar that we were created for connectness ... to our Creator. We can deny it, suppress it, ignore it to our peril (Scripture uses the metaphor of having a hard, resistant callous), but in the wee sma' hours of the night, if one is very, very honest, he intrinsically knows he exists for more than mundane affairs; he was created for greatness and great risks. See my post "Hope and its Idioms" where I expand upon the Divine cosmic fairytale.
I'll close with this: Jesus of Nazareth's death was a huge miscarriage of human justice. Injustices have preceded and succeeded his death (unless one throws out any barbarity as evil in which case there is no such thing as injustice), so in and of itself Jesus' unfair execution is not unique. Pick up today's paper and its filled with perps getting away with murder (metaphorically and literally), identity theft, political corruption, etc. Philosopher-king Solomon journaled with angst:
Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:
I saw the tears of the oppressed -- and they have no comforter, power was on the side of their oppressors-- and they have no comforter. And I declared that the dead who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. But better than both is he who has not yet been, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun. ~ Ecclesiastes 4:1-3
The oppressed don't need formulaic religion. They need a just avenger. They need the hope that evil doesn't ultimately prevail, that life isn't absurd, that patience is rewarded.
I don't need religion. I need God, my savior, defender, avenger. I was born asking "Why?" (driving my parents nuts) and troubled by unfairness. Jesus' resurrection out from among all the dead was Heaven's guarantee/downpayment to me all life's injustices will one day be righted, all hidden evil "uncovered and laid bare."
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead
Quote: ------------------------------------------------ Jesus' resurrection out from among all the dead ------------------------------------------
Do you know about Jesus 18 years of missing? Well, he was in India to study and practice yoga. Do you know even today in India so many yogi (Guru)practiced Yoga by putting thier head in sand (upside down) for days without food, water and air?
My personal view: 'on the crucifiction Jesus practised yoga' He practiced, called: "Râja Yoga Samâdhi", 4th step of the yoga and the seventh stage of a meditation. He was at the state of superconsciousness. Where a person can reached happiness on this earth, he alone has conquered the world, who has gained perfect control over his mind and body, whose soul rests in tranquillity, and whose eyes behold Divinity in everything and everything in that Eternal Being, which is the Infinite Abode of existence, knowledge, and bliss absolute.
I can't remember the name of one of the James Bond movies, where sean Connery played 'dead' with no pulse rate. Exactly, it's a raja yoga.
Where is Jesus after his so called "resurrection"?
In the Padma Purana, written in (200 A.D.) Have the mention of a 'saintly' person or 'syaktavesa avatar' apearing to the west of India, who called Isa. This word Isa Appears to be from the word 'Isvara' a sanskrit word meaning 'Lord'. The word we all know today as Messiah comes from this word Isavara. As the Purana narates, this Isa will come to India after his teenage years to learn the science of Yoga. After this education he returns to the countries to the west of India to 'teach' what he has learnt. In other words he is now a "Guru". The Purana then goes on to say that this Isa is crusified for preaching a philosophy that differs from the native people's mainstream faith. The Padma Purana says that he survived the crusifiction with help from his lerned knowledge and his disciples, and then traveled back to India and lived the remainder of his life in what is now Kashmir(Kashmere), India.
There is a samadhi (tomb) of this Isa in Kashmere where there is a mould of his feet that shows the scars from the crusifiction. Jesus the messiah, Isa, the syaktavesa avatar did practice Yoga, he mastered it, then became a Guru of it.
Well, no one has yet to find a Tomb of Jesus in Jerusalem, because it's in India.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Serenity of mind, good-heartedness, purity of nature, self-control—this is called mental austerity. ~Gitopanishad.
[This message was edited by doon1946 on 08-16-05 at 10:49 PM.]
[This message was edited by doon1946 on 08-16-05 at 10:49 PM.]
Posts: 4232 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 01-29-03
Hey guys, Let's try to stay on topic--this debate is over whether the world would be better without religion; it is not a discussion of Jesus. If you want to bring Jesus into your arguments, that's perfectly fine, just make sure it relates to the broader topic. Thanks
------------------------- "The sleep of reason produces monsters." ~Francisco de Goya
Posts: 3489 | Location: United States | Registered: 03-17-02
yes, of course the world would be an amazingly better place with no religion. God himself disapproves of religion. It is man made and is used as a tool to distort and control through traditions and a robotic mentality. Through religion, God has been mocked, distorted, lied about, and totally forgotten. Religion pollutes and criminalized everything that God stands for. It has been the cause of many many countless deaths, and it has all been in the name of "God" when the perpetrators never had any kind of grasp on who God is.
Religion also gives others of faith, who don't have a religion a bad name, because they are all grouped together. It is man made rules and opinions which do more damage than good, in fact there is no good associated with it at all.
The suicide bombers kill thousands of people in the name of their religion and God. I know that they are told this just so they will do it, but they actually believe it, they believe that they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Thus religion is a form of control and distortion. Doing damage everywhere it exists.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22
Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau
You'll have to clarify, yellowfairy, what you 'follow' then. I expect to hear the usual Protestant rhetoric.
Interestingly enough, though Protestants dont believe in 'religion' as you put it, how then is it that fundamentalism arises out of the Protestant branches?
Ever heard of a fundamental catholic? (IRA doesnt count, theyre Political Independance fighters...fairly nuts, too).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Im a Million Different People From One Day to the Next ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
Quote: ---------------------------------------------- this debate is over whether the world would be better without religion; ----------------------------------------------
Of course not...except that every one in this world with IQ over 155. (a joke)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Serenity of mind, good-heartedness, purity of nature, self-control—this is called mental austerity. ~Gitopanishad.
Posts: 4232 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 01-29-03
quote:Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope: You'll have to clarify, yellowfairy, what you 'follow' then. I expect to hear the usual Protestant rhetoric.
Interestingly enough, though Protestants dont believe in 'religion' as you put it, how then is it that fundamentalism arises out of the Protestant branches?
Ever heard of a fundamental catholic? (IRA doesnt count, theyre Political Independance fighters...fairly nuts, too).
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22
Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau
quote:Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope: You'll have to clarify, yellowfairy, what you 'follow' then. I expect to hear the usual Protestant rhetoric.
Interestingly enough, though Protestants dont believe in 'religion' as you put it, how then is it that fundamentalism arises out of the Protestant branches?
Ever heard of a fundamental catholic? (IRA doesnt count, theyre Political Independance fighters...fairly nuts, too).
I am not protestant beacon. I merely follow the bible and God's teaching, I am a born-again christian. Non denominational. Fundamental Relgion is the whole problem of it all. OF course I have heard of catholics, and they are all fundamentally flawed. Well not all, but all of the ones that I know. You'd be surprised to find out how many born-again christians used to be practicing catholics. It's amazing.
ko, God never created, endorsed, supported Religion. The old testament is there to learn from, and to read, we are not suppossed to follow their traditions and do what they did. That defeats the whole purpose of christ's death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22
Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau
Gah, this is bordering on 'off-topic', but if I tip the scales, well so be it.
If youre not Catholic, youre Protestant. From Protestantanism comes all the branches you know about, including Pentacostalism, which is fondly known as 'non-denominational' (ya, right).
And I wouldnt go poking holes at Catholics if I were you. I dont necessarily agree with them, but I can just as easily rip up 'tithing' (good ol Evangelism at work...) as any other theological 'mishap'.
quote: they are all fundamentally flawed.
You obviously dont know what Religous Fundamentalism is. Fundamentalism is prone in the 'non-Catholic' (if youd rather be referred to that than 'Protestant') sectors, like Evangelism. Live with it. Or dont. Meh.
And for the record, Catholics are MUCH more open minded than we are. Far less homophobic, far less conservative, far more progressive. Long live Catholicism! (I should be a Northern Irish Diplomat).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Im a Million Different People From One Day to the Next ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
yes I know who protestants are beacon. But I am not one. just because they are non-denominational does not mean that I am one.
Exactly,catholics are too open minded, wordly, and too close minded spiritually. Wide is the road that leads to destruction, and narrow is the road that leads to salvation. Tithing, is in the bible. No one created it or came up with it. There are honest churches and pastors out there ya know? That don't touch their congregations money.
Evangelism fundamental? so anyone could do it? Everyone does it the same? Is there a handbook on it? a uniform code they all follow? It's not a gift given to certain people?
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22
Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God never created, endorsed, supported Religion --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God is not a religion.
Is knowing about religion the same as knowing God?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Serenity of mind, good-heartedness, purity of nature, self-control—this is called mental austerity. ~Gitopanishad.
Posts: 4232 | Location: Land of Lincoln, USA | Registered: 01-29-03
If youre not a Protestant, youre either Catholic or Atheist!!!!
Anyway, thats not the point. The point is that ALL major churches around the globe are money pinching TV-obsessed media events! Thats just the fact. They made themselves into MAJOR churches, so your little honest church on the corner of Moore St means nothing, because the Big Boys are decimating your religion, or, perhaps, you wholeheartedly agree with what they do, as it is in the bible afterall.
And if you truly believe in tithing, you should be sacrificing gold necklaces or cattle. Not fiat currency.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And Im a Million Different People From One Day to the Next ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
Of course the human nature is the same so we can relate but I foresee the tendency of us fading from religion in the future. The connection wouldn’t really be strong like it used to. 
