Is it me, or did KO lose the plot in hilarious psychadelic fashion?

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And Im a Million Different People
From One Day to the Next
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Those questions are easily ansewered by looking at the athiests. Do athiests still do acts of kindness? Do they really act that much differently in most respects than those who do believe in god?

There was a time when religion was needed. That time has passed.

Of course it's needed! It gives people a mission in life. It will always be needed, to varying degrees over time.

By saying 'gives people a mission in life', Im just saying the manifesto verbatim...Im not endorsing or anything.

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And Im a Million Different People
From One Day to the Next
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I am not saying it has no affect now, I am saying that affect is no longer needed.

And I say it is needed.

To which you reply (again): I am not saying it has no affect.

Gah. I'll quote Asa and assert Cognitive Dissonance +10 enchant on you.

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And Im a Million Different People
From One Day to the Next
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The two beliefs do not contradict each other.

The reason they were needed before simply does not apply now.

Getting so personal ko are we? Did I mention any specific religions in my post? Did I mention my own religion? or rather lack thereof? hmmmm insinuating that I have messages between the lines I write? putting words in my mouth?
ko, if I say that I do not have a religion than what basis do you have to tell me I do? We both know the definition of religon right? I don't have one, but let's leave my personal salvation out of this debate.

Religion is often corrupt as the machine that it is, when people start to do wrong and use God's name to back it up or justify it. That's what I was saying. NO names, no denominations, just in general. I think relgion cause more harm than good. The good do outnumber the corrupt but one corrupt heart equals many.

Dogsi, don't you think now is as good a time as any to "need" religion? I think as the time progresses there will be a huge calling for religion and a closeness to something more righteous and good.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22

Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau

http://www.myspace.com/yellowfairy

KO's stance still stands with regards to the fact that your words hold huge stigma, all in favour of your own dogma and not others. There are those that practice wicca witchcraft (certainly no 'religion', even by your hazy definition), that you would nevertheless detest.

All because you are insisting for no empirical reason that you are 'right'. Excellent debate technique.

Do you go to church on Sunday? If you answered yes,....Religious If you answered no....Heathen!

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And Im a Million Different People
From One Day to the Next
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This is NOT a topic about Yellowfairy and her personal beliefs but whether the world would be a better place without religion. Therefore, please keep your arguments focused to religion in general. Thanks.

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"The sleep of reason produces monsters." ~Francisco de Goya

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Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope:
KO's stance still stands with regards to the fact that your words hold huge stigma, all in favour of your own dogma and not others.

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I believe I showed no favor towards any religion in my post beacon. Nor did I mention my own beliefs. Saying that religion was formed by man in no way dictates that I feel my lack of religion is better than all. You cannot debate off of assumptions beacon and ko, only spoken words, and seeing as how I mentioned nothing of my personal beliefs, you are debating nothing.

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There are those that practice wicca witchcraft (certainly no 'religion', even by your hazy definition), that you would nevertheless detest.

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There you go assuming again beacon. I most certainley do not detest any kind of person no matter what they believe in. And I never gave a definition of what a non-religious person should be. They are free to do what they do, as are you and I.

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All because you are insisting for no empirical reason that you are 'right'. Excellent debate technique.

Do you go to church on Sunday? If you answered yes,....Religious If you answered no....Heathen!

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The debate posed a very simple question of the impact of religion on the world, and seeing as how death, destruction, corruption and the like have gone hand in hand in the past with religon (and so it goes today) I state that yes, the world would be a more peaceable place without organized relgion. Who would you be more offended by, a known and proclaimed swindler or criminal, or someone who parades themself as a "holy person of God" hiding beneath this image and mask only to trick you in the end?

There are churches that claim non-denominational status beacon. There are many different reasons for going to church as well. It can be relgious if you make it, as it can be something more, if you wish.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22

Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau

http://www.myspace.com/yellowfairy

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There are many different reasons for going to church as well. It can be relgious if you make it, as it can be something more, if you wish

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Its religious. If not, please explain why.

I am of the belief that religion was only the method of mobilization for wars, violence, stereotyping, racism. Religion is a politik utilized by those with power.

The world may have been a better place without religion, as it may have been without oppression, extortion and blackmail. But who am I to surmize?

The psychological yearning for spiritual acts inately imbedded in the human brain (which I have mentioned before) needed an outlet, and, coupled with a need for communal integration, religion was born. It was as good a thing as it was a bad thing.

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And Im a Million Different People
From One Day to the Next
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Beacon,

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Its religious. If not, please explain why.

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This would still be about Yellowfairy. Two posts ago, I asked you to discuss religion in general terms so as to stay on topic. Therefore, if there is a specific reason for your establishing that her belief system is religious which relates to the major topic at hand, make that relation clear, and your posts on the topic will stand. However, if they become a side discussion, take it to a private topic or your posts will be edited.

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"The sleep of reason produces monsters." ~Francisco de Goya

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This is NOT a topic about Yellowfairy and her personal beliefs but whether the world would be a better place without religion.

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I beg the differ Katelyn. I understand where you are coming from but there are people who think that their belief (in this case religion) is more superior to others that are why conflicts occur. When a person claims that “religion is bad because God hates religion” – you really have to question the source. In this case, I need to keep questioning her logics because a lot of it is not all that logical. I know you have doubts but just follow me …

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Getting so personal ko are we?

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Why? I am here for the debate baby. If it was something personal, I’ll send you some roses.

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Did I mention any specific religions in my post? Did I mention my own religion? or rather lack thereof? if I say that I do not have a religion than what basis do you have to tell me I do? putting words in my mouth? We both know the definition of religon right? I don't have one

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Religion
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

It seems that you do have one. You’ll disagree with me but you do have a religion! You do believe in God because you keep referring to him and the testament. I didn’t put any word in your mouth – all the pieces were there to begin with (here and in GD).

This is the basis I told you that you do have a religion.


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But always remember - it's still not a premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

yellowfairy, most people know that I do not attend church at all, that I cant stand pastors or christian fundamentalists, or pentecostals...

Despite me being a 'free-roving spiritualist', I still consider myself religious.

I pray nightly, abide by ten commandments (to the best of my ability, anyway), am definitely pious...

...when I was into the evangelical church scene a few years ago, I was baptised, prophesied over...read the bible...

Hey. Im religious. And I know you're a lot better at that stuff than I am. So....yeah.



Yes, this is off topic, but it's just clarifying/tying up what KO just said. I wont mention a peep about this anymore. Adios.

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And Im a Million Different People
From One Day to the Next
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ko and beacon, Religion is a very simple concrete thing in a persons life. You would most certainley know if you were a part of relgion or if you were not. Since I have been forced to I will say that I am a non-denominational born again christian. I have no sets or rules to follow, I do read the bible and I do attend church. A non-denominational church. What I have I do not view as religious, nor do any others of my belief system. It is not a religion, I do not know how to make it any more simpler than that.
KO, I apologize if I ever spoke with inferiority about any specific religion in any of my posts. I in no way intended to make myself better or make my personal beliefs seem higher than any others. I believe I kept them out. When I mentioned God and his distaste for organized religion yes it came from the bible, but that does not automatically point to my personal faith, the bible is universal ko, many diff. denominations use it.
ko if you say you are not of spanish descent, I must take what you say as the truth.
boh, if you say you are not jewish, same thing.
If I say I am not nor have ever been a religious person or have never agreed with religion, then why can't I say it with the understanding that you will take it as fact seeing as how it is so personal.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved~~~~Mathew 10:22

Is there not a sort of blood shed when the conscience is wounded? Through this wound a man's real manhood and immortality flow out, and he bleeds to an everlasting death--H.D. Thoreau

http://www.myspace.com/yellowfairy

"Without religion there cannot be faith and without faith, what would you believe?"

Are you kidding me? Why do you need faith to believe in something? How about hypothesis? How about personal experiment? How about probability? How about facts?


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But always remember - it's still not a premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

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Originally posted by yellowfairy:
What Good, at all, comes from religion? They are accepting of each other and that is all right? well generally speaking. Religion has caused discourse, death, the trespassing on personal rights and beliefs etc.
And the inner-workings of their own "churches" and structures, seem to be the most corrupt of all.

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Geez, do you read nothing? It's trivially easy to look at the apparent bad things caused from institutions, belief systems, it requires actual thought (rather than ranting), to make an educated decision on the overall status of things.

If you reached this decision (with actual thought), I can't help but thinking that you're considering the smallest vicinity possible, and the smallest timescale. Maybe you should study a little bit about the history of the Church; maybe even the history of atheism (which would probably help you a lot). But if you genuinely don't know about what Religion has contributed to society (and, more importantly, to the evolution of consciousness and morality), then I can explain.

KO,

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Are you kidding me? Why do you need faith to believe in something? How about hypothesis? How about personal experiment? How about probability? How about facts?

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What exactly do you think a fact is? Empirical investigation doesn't ever necessitate certainty. The "laws of the Universe" is just slang for the regularities we perceive in nature. This doesn't mean that they hold no strength, but that it's quite different to logical factood. Faith, in religions, is often defined as "trust". If you're saying that non-religious people emote and go about their daily-dealings without faith then you are quite mistaken .

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What exactly do you think a fact is?

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Fact (from dic..BS.. dot..com)
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

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Empirical investigation doesn't ever necessitate certainty.

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Of course not. Faith doesn't nesessitate certainty either! How much does faith weight?People have faith do stuff all the time ... you see sportmen saying... they have faith that they are going to win .... they truely believe that they'll win. It doesn't necessary happen!

Nothing is perfect but it is good enough for me! I don't live my life by the 0.0001% - that's the fact baby.

If facts vary from day to day then I should have more faith or more something something! Get addicted to faith ... get a little crazy and let it wash away your soul!

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The "laws of the Universe" is just slang for the regularities we perceive in nature

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and we come to that conclusion by what? Faith? Of course not! By probability... by experiments... by logic... by theory!

You can call it a slang or whatever but when I jump off 150 meters building, I rather have 'a parachute' than 'a faith'

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Faith, in religions, is often defined as "trust". If you're saying that non-religious people emote and go about their daily-dealings without faith then you are quite mistaken

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I am not mistaken anything dawg! Coming to work today doesn't need any faith.

I trust that my alarm will wake me up. It did because I set the damn thing and it works more that 99.9% of the time. I started my car and drive to work. Chances are my car will not break down - also about 99.9%. When I get to the office.... vola! the building is still there! Wow!

Come on! ... that's probability... that's me experimenting and collecting data! If the sun turns out to be a big fat ultra vagina tomorrow then we should have more faith ... let's go crazy with it - like a 6 years old child on candy diet!


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But always remember - it's still not a premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

Off-topic posts have been deleted, and even the last few I left are sort of if-y, so please make sure to relate your arguments back to whether the world would be a better place with no religion at all. Thanks.

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"The sleep of reason produces monsters." ~Francisco de Goya