Ok, Do we know God is Real?? No we believe he is, but is he?? A preacher will say yes why he believes, but where is his solid poof?? He has none but his beliefs... To believe is to assume and to prove is to know...

Beliefs and assumptions are too much alike.... They label a chance of being wrong.

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If you know something for sure, but in actual fact it is wrong, you don't know it's wrong so do you still know what you know or believe so?

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No, you assume you know until you prove otherwise... If you care so much to turn an assumption into a fact then be my guest, but until you prove it, it is still an assumption.

There have been so many religions upon this earth, but which one is right?? You cannot tell people; the Christen church is the way to light. You cannot tell people, that being a Muslims is the true pathway to heaven.

You cannot tell anything because you are selling your very beliefs to the world, but there is no guarantee that your God is the real way to the after life...

We assume, that’s all there is to it…

Now, if you are doing a math problem and you got the answer right, but you are not sure…. Then yes with facts your answer is right, but to you it is still an assumption until you get it right… Not, umm I believe I am right, no, no, no, no, because you leave room that it possibly wrong, which becomes an assumption.

You cannot deny a possibility of being right and still call it a fact…….

"Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."

"There can be no assumption that today's majority is "right" and the Amish and others like them are "wrong." A way of life that is odd or even erratic but interferes with no rights or interests of others is not to be condemned because it is different. "
Warren E. Burger


Believe it, but it's still and assumption.... Prove it and your wise, but who the hell really cares?? Not me...

I just want to live life to it's fullest... Help the needy, fall in love, raise a few kids so that one day I earn the right to be called a Dad, and love everyone around me.. No matter what they believe in, no mattter what is true.. Is that so wrong? And why becuase someone said so? Who the hell cares what another person thinks.....

Religion is an assumption to live by, it's a way of life, it's not a proven fact..

Without religion we'd be no different....
There's my assumption


Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

I know that this debate has probably a million different directions, but I just wanted to respond the initial argument of the topic.

In my opinion, just because many people today are rejecting God doesn't mean that God doesn't have a place in society. To make this argument is to imply that an absence of consensus means an absence of truth. It's simply not logical.

In fact, however, many scientists today are rejecting ideas like evolution and the big bang. I'll be perfectly honest with you and admit that I have no idea how to cite that claim, but I suppose it's something to consider.

Let me also point out that "Religion," as many people call it, is not necessarily defined exclusively as a belief in a spiritual being or God.

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put." -Winston Churchill

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Let me also point out that "Religion," as many people call it, is not necessarily defined exclusively as a belief in a spiritual being or God.

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Amen to that......

Anyway, no this world would not be any more ****ed up than it already is if religion didn't exist... How do I know???

I don't... Neither do you all... predict what happens to me when I jump out of an airplane?? I already landed, but predict what could have prevented me from landing... Sure we can name a few things, but you could not tell me which one would happen.........

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

I know that this debate has probably gone a million different directions, but I just wanted to respond the initial argument of the topic.

In my opinion, just because many people today are rejecting God doesn't mean that God doesn't have a place in society. To make this argument is to imply that an absence of consensus means an absence of truth. It's simply not logical.

In fact, however, many scientists today are rejecting ideas like evolution and the big bang. I'll be perfectly honest with you and admit that I have no idea how to cite that claim, but I suppose it's something to consider.

Let me also point out that "Religion," as many people call it, is not necessarily defined exclusively as a belief in a spiritual being or God.

Let's slow this down look at something important here: we live in a world of conflicting worldviews. Let's define a few basic categories of worldviews to clarify the debate:

-Theism is the belief that both the physical and spiritual world exist. Christians and Muslims are theists.

-Naturalism is the belief that only the physical world exists; all occurrences can be explained scientifically. Atheists and evolutionists are Naturalists.

-Transcendentalism asserts that the physical does not exist; it is merely an illusion or depiction of the spiritual. The spiritual world is the only thing that exists and the physical is simply a mask of the true identity of everything. Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Wiccans and Pantheists are Transcendentalist.


All of that is to say that EVERYONE has a worldview, whether they admit it or not. Worldviews are what give us security in our knowledge of our environment; they answer questions such as, "Where did we all come from? Where did we get this funny idea of right and wrong? Is this idea of right and wrong farcical or is it factual, coming from some kind of absolute source?"

The point I want to make, however, is that Christianity (or theism) is NOT the only worldview that requires proof. Some people would argue that God is merely a concept that requires proof and can only be promoted by faith. Well, I am here to tell you that EVERY WORLDVIEW REQUIRES FAITH. Allow me to give you an example:

One particular Christian man was giving a lecture refuting a book written by Richard Dawkins, a popular leading atheist in today's world. He refuted the arguments given by Dawkins point-by-point and at the end of the lecture, an atheist man who had attended stood up in the middle of the audience, furious. He yelled, "You've undermined my beliefs! How dare you!"

The Christian who had given the lecture realized something: the atheist man had based his entire worldview off of Richard Dawkins' arguments; those arguments were what had given him security in his beliefs, and now that they were undermined, he didn't know where to go.

Some people might question why the atheist man didn't simply start believing in Christianity if he didn't know how to answer the Christian man. But this is the whole problem: the atheist man still HAD FAITH in his beliefs, but the reasons for why his views were correct were undermined.

Here's another example: I have complete FAITH in today's medical knowledge and the doctor's ability to suppress pain during surgery. This faith is BASED ON REASON (in fact, the same reason that a naturalist places his faith in). But when the surgery's about to commence, I immediately feel fear: I'm afraid the oxygen mask will make me choke, or that the doctors will start cutting into me before I've lost consciousness. But NONE of these feelings are based on reason! Yet I still have this fear!

So the fact that Christianity requires faith does not remove credence for its general validity as a worldview. Rather, this should be the point at which we start to determine where our faith comes in.

For example, an atheist CANNOT PROVE why intelligent design is not a good argument against evolution and the big bang theory.

To be perfectly honest, NOTHING CAN BE PROVEN. Or, at least, nothing which is not already self-evident (after all, something self-evident would be something like 2+2=4 or that the sky is blue).

I'll let that play for awhile. Have fun!

"From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put." -Winston Churchill

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To be perfectly honest, NOTHING CAN BE PROVEN. Or, at least, nothing which is not already self-evident (after all, something self-evident would be something like 2+2=4 or that the sky is blue).

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Amen........

Inefficient, is not to be dumb, but rather uneducated, in certain abilities and certain skills. One should not consider himself above another just because he has shown a great deal in education; however, it is nothing special that some are more educated than others, and it is nothing to brag about, but it is wise to consider the possibilities that you can use your education to keep others who are not as educated in great use.

That made me think for a while there, thank you.
Your point about the surgery, there is no reason what so ever to be afraid and you still are... Where in our brains is that coming from and why? Is it like second thought or a random instinct that has some obsolete use. If, it could be proven that there was something in our heads that made us want to believe in god I wounder what kind of effect that would have on the world. People being people would probably say god put it in there and others would say that the thing is telling you to think that god put it in there and he actually doesn't exist. either or it wouldn't solve anything anyway.
That Christian man story, that was a good point but it could have gone either way.

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Where in our brains is that coming from and why? Is it like second thought or a random instinct that has some obsolete use. If, it could be proven that there was something in our heads that made us want to believe in god I wounder what kind of effect that would have on the world. People being people would probably say god put it in there and others would say that the thing is telling you to think that god put it in there and he actually doesn't exist. either or it wouldn't solve anything anyway.

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This only tells me that when face difficult questions, we use religion to answer it.

So we can comprehend.


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But it's still not premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

The concept of a divine being seems to be "wired" in the human brain. There is no human civilizations that has no notion of God, in one form or another. I think that great human civilization came about because of religion. Religion has bonded communities and peoples. There is a connection between spiritual beliefs/the quest for the hereafter and communal continuity and stability. But this uniting factor has also become the cause of religious wars which killed millions, all in the name of God. Very ironic.

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There is no human civilizations that has no notion of God, in one form or another.

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A lot of civilize countries (at least as civilize as others) doesn't believe in God. In the future, may be civilizations will consist of no God.


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But it's still not premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

What is the purpose of life??
god didn't create us to eat drink sleep and do this repeatedly over and over again there must be a purpose. And how the hell did the universe come by and its so incredible how theres not a single flaw in nature science etc. Its impossible for it to appear by itself there must be god.. And some of you said that no religion tells you to kill steal etc which is true. Christianity tells you not to steal Islam tell you not to steal.and so on..
so we all are different and have our own values our own beliefs and ethics. So my opinion is that religion plays a huge role in who we are.

=D

How about another one of God v.s Homer Simpsons?

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What is the purpose of life??

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Answers are too subjective. If you ask me, I would say that the purpose of many form of lives on earth is to procreate.

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god didn't create us to eat drink sleep and do this repeatedly over and over again there must be a purpose.

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You don't know that. Just because your religion book sounds pretty good doesn't make it right. What's the objective of having a fish bowl? The purpose is to watch it eat, drink, shit, sleep. May be we are somebody's fish bowl?

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how the hell did the universe come by and its so incredible how theres not a single flaw in nature science etc.

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Let's say there is a creator, it doesn't mean that it's 'your' personal version of it (aka. God).

Again, just because your religion book sounds pretty good doesn't make it right.

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Its impossible for it to appear by itself there must be god..

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If so then you'd already made up your mind. Nothing will change it. Just hope it is so otherwise it would sucks.

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And some of you said that no religion tells you to kill steal etc which is true. Christianity tells you not to steal Islam tell you not to steal.and so on..

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The law also tell you not to steal. So ...

Anyway, according to the Koran, you can kill the enemy of Allah. You will be rewarded.

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we all are different and have our own values our own beliefs and ethics.

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Yes. One man's garbage is another's treasure.

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So my opinion is that religion plays a huge role in who we are.

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Not we. May be you.


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But it's still not premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

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its so incredible how theres not a single flaw in nature science etc.

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Yeah, it's so amazing, all the junk scaffolding DNA that's left over in our genetic code, totally unflawed and totally unused. ...and cancer, feline AIDS, the way meat comes uncooked and crawling with pathogens, the way snake venom breaks down the circulatory system: flawless. Totally flawless.

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Its impossible for it to appear by itself there must be god..

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If there is a God how did he come about? I wonder. Well, clearly it's impossible for It to appear by itself, so there must be a God God.

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Anyway, according to the Koran, you can kill the enemy of Allah. You will be rewarded.

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Yes indeed, the Karan says just that, but it says in war you will be rewarded for killing the enemy of Allah.

Try and take their faith away from them, then they believe that they have the right to kill in honor of Allah and that I believe is how Muhammad ment it.

I believe that a religion that teaches it's believers to steal, kill, and so much more-is no true religion.

If God want's us to kill others than we need not to worry for he is not God.


"If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue with me, correct me - but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way." -Roger Ebert

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."

I am in utter agreement. We should only worship good, graceful gods, if we really feel the need to worship such inventions. Allah, Yehovah and other murderous gods are inventions of cruel and ignorant would-be do-gooders, and reflect only the worst of psychotics and human monsters. If we could divorce Christianity and Islam from their origins, they might be noble, but we cannot and they are not.

The world will never have 'no religion' because fantasy overtakes us, and it is fun to let it occasionally. A world without religion could only exist in a world without creativity.

Fuzzies

I am admiring the unintended humor in your posts more and more.

Like your name suggests you tend to gravitate towards the warm and fuzzy and away from reality. The funny part is that you charge others in the denial of reality that you practice.

Maybe you need to be reminded of the three truth tests. The 3 truth tests-PUBLIC, ETERNAL and INDEPENDENT. Ultimate truth must be available to all, it must be true throughout time, and it must be true whether one likes it or not. Your complaints about God not being the god you want would fall under the last one.

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We should only worship good, graceful gods

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You can’t have it both ways and say belief in God is like belief in flying spaghetti eating pink unicorns and also say “we should only worship good, graceful gods.”

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A world without religion could only exist in a world without creativity.

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Are you saying that, throughout history, art and literature inspired by Christianity was not creative?

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Allah, Yehovah and other murderous gods are inventions of cruel and ignorant would-be do-gooders, and reflect only the worst of psychotics and human monsters.

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Was Dietrich Bonhoeffer "the worst of psychotics and human monsters."

I am not sure whose posts are more on the fringes of radical atheist thought, yours, or BofH's.
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"In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis

It's not Religion it's self that causes grief or happiness, but rather people themselves whom interprete religion in their own way, no matter what, people will always be people. So really it wouldn't matter if religion suddenly didn't exist because people would just find something new to have wars and conflicts over. And religious faith does not determine wether or not you are a good person or bad person, you choose to be good because that is your choice. no matter what you believe( or don't believe) people are gonna do what they want to do.

obviously the world would be better off with no religion. consider this: every major war throughout history has involved religion on some level. whether it was over freedom to choose one's own religion or whether it was over irresolvable differences among seperate religion, there has never been a war worth mentioning that did not involve religion. therefore, no religion=no war

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no religion=no war

Really? Kind of like no women no cry?

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Yeah, it's so amazing, all the junk scaffolding DNA that's left over in our genetic code, totally unflawed and totally unused. ...and cancer, feline AIDS, the way meat comes uncooked and crawling with pathogens, the way snake venom breaks down the circulatory system: flawless. Totally flawless.

Wait a second, I don't even care all that much about the main debate here, but seriously Fuzzies? Those are flaws? That junk scaffolding is what keeps species changing to survive in different conditions. It may be unused now, but what about later? Aids is just the result another species doing it's own thing. Those pathogens break down material in a necessary process that sustains all life, whether or not it bothers you that they sometimes make you sick or kill you. Snakes gotta eat. Pretty damned good system, I think, whether it works out in my favor or not.

You know these things, don't be so silly.

Now, I won't say anything about the existence or non-existence of a god/goddess/gods/force/etc, but, I think the whole question of whether or not the world would be better without religion is silly. A world without religion would be different. I think that's about all you really can say about it. There are just far too many variables to say whether or not it would be better. It's the same with all kinds of speculation.

I didn't want to take time to read the 8 pages of debate in this thread, but figured I'd put in my two cents.


"Would the world be a better place without religion?" That's the question. Well, first of all, define "religion." More and more today, even the likes of Secular Humanism and Marxist Humanism are being considered a "religion." Just a thought there.

Second, are we accounting for injustices committed in the name of theistic (God-believing) religions? People acting in the name of Christianity or Islam have certainly carried out unjust acts (Crusades, Jihads, etc). But might I remind everyone that several secular societies have carried out heinous and grotesque operations as well? The Soviet Union under Stalin, the Nazis under Hitler, and Cuba... All of these and more are responsible for the deaths of, not thousands, but several million people... And yet, they were secular/nontheistic societies. Based on those facts, it is not religion itself that causes injustice, but simply the human tendency to desire control and power.

Also, I would point out to the author of this thread that statistically, religion is INCREASING, not decreasing currently... And analysts expect it to continue to increase. I can provide sources and citations for this later on.

I've got more, but I've gotta go.