Public schools exist to educate, not to proselytize. Children in public schools are a captive audience. Making prayer an official part of the school day is coercive and invasive. What 5, 8, or 10-year-old could view prayers recited as part of class routine as "voluntary"? Religion is private, and schools are public, so it is appropriate that the two should not mix. To introduce religion in our public schools builds walls between children who may not have been aware of religious differences before.
Our public schools are for all children, whether Catholic, Baptist, Quaker, atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, agnostic. The schools are supported by all taxpayers, and therefore should be free of religious observances and coercion. It is the sacred duty of parents and churches to instill religious beliefs, free from government dictation. Institutionalizing prayers in public schools usurps the rights of parents.
School prayer proponents mistake government neutrality toward religion as hostility. The record shows that religious beliefs have flourished in this country not in spite of but because of the constitutional separation of church and state. Some politicans like to blame everything bad in America upon the absence of school prayer. Get real! Entire generations of Americans have grown up to be law-abiding citizens without ever once reciting a prayer in school! If prayer is the answer, why are our jails and prisons bulging with born-agains! Japan, where no one prays at school, has the lowest crime rate of any developed nation.
Institutionalizing school prayer can not raise the SAT scores (only more studying and less praying can do that). It is irrational to charge that the complicated sociological problems facing our everchanging population stem from a lack of prayer in schools.
"The important thing is not to stop questioning." -Albert Einstein
Wow... you've pretty much already said everything that I was planning on posting. The was an interesting article in the Nation on separation of Church and State recently, particularly about the newly created White House Office of Faith-Based Action. It's not completely related to this, but I thought you'd be interested, given your comments.
I think that there have already been some excellent points made. I can only add that I think we need to make sure that Separation of Church and State doesn't become Exclusion of Church from State.
If a someone wants to start an after school bible study, they should be allowed to. Religion was always a touchy subject at my highschool. Everyone ignored religion so as to not step over the separation line. I think that that is where the danger lies. To say that there is absolutely no place for religion in school is to tell childeren that there is no place for it in society. As long as religion is discussed and not preached, it should be allowed in schools.
Posts: 46 | Location: Rolla, MO, USA | Registered: 02-01-01
Thank you, autonomous, for clearly stating the arguments against school prayer. As a Jewish child who sang carols at the school "winter" concerts, and know as a parent, who has children (still!) bringing home 10 Santa Claus projects for each Chanukah-related one, I can wholeheartedly agree with your point of view.
Cschultz - while religion has a place in society, it is not in the schools. There is a fine line between discussions and preaching, especially when teaching is presented to the younger grades. Teachers present information and persuade their students - that's their job. No, I do not have my head in the sand, and have studied other religions - beliefs, traditions, and laws, but did so as a college student, not a child.
Please keep in mind - even at this year's presidential inauguration, which should have included all the citizens of the United States, the prayer was given "in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ." While He may be President Bush's Lord, he's not mine, and in that moment, every American who is not of the Christian faith was given notice of our status in the new government. (But that's a topic for an other debate.)
As Lady Macbeth said: Do not stand upon the order of your leaving, just get the heck out of here! (thanks RBG)
I would like to begin by stating that Autonomous made the points that I would have liked to say if I had caught on to this topic earlier. Albeit in an wonderfully articulate and eloquent manner which I hope to aspire to.
I was exposed to religion my entire life, and not by my choice. Being raised in Northern Ireland religion has always been a major bone of contention. On a daily basis I was forced to make decisions regarding persons who we never viewed as "people". I was taught to be judgmental, prejudicial and for the most part, violent towards any theological opposition to Catholicism. My parents brought me here when I was seven years old to finally put an end to this circle of bigotry and hatred. I am privileged to be an American citizen and enjoy my religious freedom immensely. Now as a 25 year old who is considering the possibility of my own children some day, I want for them to enjoy that same right. That is the right to not be exposed to any religion other than the historical facts that are necessitated to explain certain conflicts in our past. I will not indoctrinate my children into my own faith either, but will prepare them as my parents did for me. By giving me the freedom to make my own decisions after presenting me with the appropriate tools and knowledge concerning as many theologies as possible. In has come to pass all these years later that my family is still Catholic, whereas I converted to Judaism when I was nine after intense study in many doctrines. This was a decision I arrived at on my own, it was a faith I felt comfortable with in order to commune with my higher power. Maybe my children will become Jewish, maybe they will be Catholic or Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, Sihkist or Muslim. The point is that I don't care how they worship or if they do. All I care about is that their questions are answered to the best ability I have. That they seek further knowledge beyond what I can give. That no one tells them what they should or should not be and all possibilities remain open to them in all arenas. Most importantly, I endeavor that they remain happy all their days here free from persecution, religious or otherwise.
Separation of church and state is a cornerstone of our country and our politic. It is through our differences than we find our strength in this nation. To remove that fundamental block would be to topple a construction that men and women have toiled, fought and DIED for. I hope that no one presumes so much as to belittle that fact any further by entertaining the thought of religion "belonging" in schools.
This is in no way even near a complete treatise on this topic. It is simply a small view from a small part of my life that somehow remains controversial despite it's simplicity.
[This message was edited by Connor James Fitzpatrick on 03-17-01 at 12:53 PM.]
Posts: 45 | Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: 03-17-01
I agree with the last statement, we draw from this. Although religion is good for some people its not for everyone. Some people, including myself, feel smothered by religion. I'm not saying that these people don't believe in God but it should be forced upon us.
There seems to be no debate here and you won't get one from me. The only point I'd like to make is that way back in the Middle (or was it Dark) Ages when I was in junior high, our civics class included a study block on world religions. Although we worked as a class, we were subgrouped and each group was assigned a major world religion to research and report on. It was beneficial and broadened our views of the world and helped us to understand other cultures and ethnic groups. I think it also promoted tolerance for different beliefs. All in all, it was a great experience.
Do I agree on school prayer? What's the big deal? I mean, 30 seconds of our time set aside to prayer is not going to do anything. While I can't pray in school we have 60 seconds of time in which everyone is quiet. We supposedly "reflect upon the anticipated activities of the day." Basically, most people pray during that point. But hey, as long as it's silent, it's all good.
I agree, we can't blame all school tragedies on prayer not in school though. Prayer isn't responsible for what I do...it's just a means of figuring out what I need to do.
And that whole president thing, I agree...Jewish people and people of belief that Christ has yet to come...or doesn't exist...they might not have appreciated it. But as we picked someone to represent us, we picked him because of what he represented. I would never want someone to give up themself (mind, body, belief) just due to the fact that they might not appeal to some groups.
But anyway, I just want to add something I saw on a shirt the other day:
quote: I broke a law. I prayed in school. Yeah, I'm a real menace to society now.
Klep "Lord, what fools these mortals be." --Shakespeare, Midsummer Night's Dream (Puck)
Individuals have the right to pray wherever and whenever they want. You can stand in the middle of the street and start praying. You can do it silently, or out loud. Go ahead. Take your moment of reflection at school, and squeeze in an entire hymnal, if you want. I won't stop you, and I will defend your right to do so.
But don't ask me to join you.
As for the President, you said: "I agree...Jewish people and people of belief that Christ has yet to come...or doesn't exist...they might not have appreciated it. But as we picked someone to represent us, we picked him because of what he represented. I would never want someone to give up themself (mind, body, belief) just due to the fact that they might not appeal to some groups."
First - once Mr. Bush became President Bush, he was no longer an "individual". He still has every right to pray to whoever or whatever he believes in, but when participating in a PUBLIC ceremony, as he becomes the representative of the ENTIRE country (even those of us who voted for the other guy), he should respect everyone's beliefs. I don't want anyone "to give up themself" - but don't pray in the name of the entire country to a deity that is not accepted by the entire country. (I may have to move this rant to a separate post - I know it's not school related, but in a way it is, because it's still public prayer). Turn the debate around- if Sen. Lieberman had been elected Vice President, how would you have felt if the Rabbi introduced his prayer with a statement about how the entire country awaits the coming of the Moshiach (messiah) as promised in the Talmud. While you wouldn't want anyone to "give up themself" or their beliefs, wouldn't you find it a bit offensive?
As Lady Macbeth said: Do not stand upon the order of your leaving, just get the heck out of here! (thanks RBG)
Reading through this thread has changed what my original post was going to be.
Galatea raised my point, that religous tolerance can probably come out of public schools. It is a flaw of our public schools, in my opinion, that YOU MUST BELIEVE WHAT TEACHER SAYS, especially in lower grades. Example-throughout my public school education, I was firmly taught the American Myth, the narrative of how we, as a country, are the best, everyone else sucks, but now we all live in peace in harmony. THen I got to private high school and found out that a lot of that was bullshit.
But this flaw can be used to teach kids religous tolerance. If you instruct children on what Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews all believe, you'll probably instill in them a religous tolerance they might not get from their parents. If a kid is taught in his head by his parents from a very early age to be an anti-semite, this is a bad thing! The schools would be the best place to teach this NEEDED tolerance. I know as a Catholic, that may faith is easy to make fun of, since the Vatican is just about the most conservative force in the entire world. But at the same time, someone ranking upon my faith is something I wouldn't tolerate. There are points made by the church that I don't agree with, but beyond that my faith is firm and I am proud of it.
What the government tends to assume, I think, is that we are all happy christians. Do you ever see on TV a commercial for Haunakkah(I know I must have mispelled it, forgive me)? NO, its all Santa and Jesus. And then this creeps into schools, where kids will do more projects for one holiday than another as rhon831 mentioned. THis is wrong, because you'll quite simply leave all those other faiths out.
For prayer in school, well, my opinion might catch a bit of flak. I attend a parochial Catholic Jesuit(theres a word that scares a lot of people) school, so prayer and mass is a pretty regular part of my education. But at public schools and prayer, instead of referring to Jesus, why not refer to God himself instead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Jews, Christians and Muslims pretty much believe in the same God? Why not just refer to him instead. The biggest flaw here is that we alienate Buddhists and Hindus, so maybe its best to eliminate the whole practice after all.
The most important thing to remember however, is that seperation of church and state is not meant to be taken so literally. Prayer in school falls here, but people take this too far and try to tell the Pope to stop talking about issues current in the world. This is not a valid excuse. Seperation of church and state prevents theocracy, which I doubt anyone wants. It does not mean that religious leaders can't comment upon social issues. Don't fall into that trap.
"We need help, the poet reckoned" Edward Dorn
"That's just my opinion...I could be wrong"
Posts: 48 | Location: Boston, Massachusetts USA | Registered: 05-02-01
Yes, there are many flaws in the public school system (and so much more the private). But I never remember being taught that I "must believe what the teacher says". However, as a wide-eyed 7 year old, I bobbed my head at everything my parents or teachers said. They were older and smarter- they must be right. But if one day my teacher started rattling off on western religions (which would doubtlessly warrant more time as more people in America follow western religions)... I don't know what I'd do. I've been a position, at a young age, where I had to defend my religion and explain why I believe certain things.
It isn't pleasant.
I'd equate it to children celebrating Mothers Day at school. The child without a mom would feel just as excluded as I did all those times.
About the commercials- The government doesnt put up commercials. You can read on the marketing thread somewhere in this forum, lol, I think we decided that commercials are ultimately at the will of the people.
I don't think you should force any child to defend their religion, nor should we give kids another reason to separate each other. It may not have meant to be taken literally when "separation of church and state" was written.... but I think it definitely should be.
Separate school and churches! Separate school and mosques! Separate school and temples!
While I do agree that a degree of seperation between church and state is necessary, some of it is required.
I honestly stand by my opinion that elementary kids should be taught of the different religions in a non-biased fair manner. A child should know that Muslims believe this, Christians believe this, Jews belive this, Buddhists believe this and Hindus believe this. These believes are mostly different, but there are a couple of similar threads. This could prevent situations like this
Man 1-Do you believe in god Man 2-No Man 1 shoots Man 2 Man 1-Do you believe in god? Man 3-Yes Man 1-Do you believe in myGod? Man 3-No Man 1 shoots man 3 Man 1-My god has a bigger dick than your god! (apologies to George Carlin)
I'll revise my opinion on prayer to say this. There should be no prayer. Exclusionism is something that is bad, but will ultimately happen and I think the best we can do is eliminate as many exclusionist policies as possible. Most of these schools I assume are mostly Christian so they're praying to Jesus. That alienates every other religion out there and it is ultimately arrogant in my view, as if saying "Jesus is the Lord, our Lord and he'll win the football game!" That's a bit wrong.
The funny thing is, even though I go to a parochial school, not all teachers pray before class(last year most of my teachers did, although the priest I had for History never did, this year only my religion teacher does) and I don't think I've ever seen prayer before a sporting event, even when we go up against other Catholic schools. I've come to a viewpoint myself that God doesn't win baseball games, but then again, I'll still ask him to give the Red Sox a boost. Force of habit
"We need help, the poet reckoned" Edward Dorn
"That's just my opinion...I could be wrong"
Posts: 48 | Location: Boston, Massachusetts USA | Registered: 05-02-01
Why? b/c it isn't a matter of religions but like people said enforcing your beliefs on others. And I feel that way with soceity as a whole anyway.
(not to offend anyone here specifically...but this is said in general)
I have faith, and my faith delivers me and I am good.
I do not believe in god, or practise any religion. Now...this automatically discredits me in soceity. You are good if you can say you believe in god. I already feel this bad enough. And I do pray, but only to myself and those who ask me in private.
I was forced to pray. I was forced to declare that god is my saviour and I will always follow him. I was told that if I ever lost my faith I would be damned. Good thing I never really had it...and that doesn't have anything to do with my reasons for being 'faithless' that is a private matter which I will share with anyone who asks in private.
Why I believe that religions shouldn't be tought in schools? B/c the school system is already messed up enough by teachers...and teachers will be biased and realistically there is nothing governing them.
There is a difference b/n facts and religion though. When discussing something that has to do with someone who was a certian faith...well that happens. And it inadvertantly discusses religion..that cannot be avoided.
I think common sense dictates here and we're all thinking the same thing but saying it differently, so b/c of that I'll end this post.
The scenario of "_____ believes ______, while ______ believes _______" is unrealistic- at least in the education systems I've been involved in. The flaw lies in something often overlooked-
Curiosity.
I don't remember my teacher ever teaching me something new without thinking, 'oh, but then, what about...? why?'... No question has ever been answered without 70 new questions arising.
Example Scenario: Teacher: Christianity is a monotheistic religion, while hinduism is polytheistic. This means, in Christianity... there is one god, while in hinduism, there are many. Student 1: What kinds of gods are there in Hinduism? Student 2: But Christ and God are both followed- so wouldnt that make Christianity polywhatever, too? Teacher: Well, I don't know much about Hinduism, but I'd say... there are probably gods for... ummm, can anyone help me out? And I'm not sure about the Christianity question either- I'll look into it.
Teachers aren't trained to know everything about a religion. I've had lots of teachers describe a religion, tradition, or practice in a derogatory fashion- not deliberately. They just didn't understand the culture.
Just this last month, my history teacher said, "Women in india would be thrown into the fire during their husbands funeral ceremony. When the British invaded, they abolished this in an attempt to civilize India." If you didn't grow up with the Indian culture all your life, you wouldnt be able to understand that this wasn't evil... that women weren't pushed, they went willingly... that it was closer to a love tragedy than an act of savagery. How do you explain that to someone? The answer?
You don't. You sit back and let everyone harbor the misconception accidently passed on by a teacher without an obvious bias.
Everyone is biased- even teachers- you can't expect them to relate something to someone without revealing thier views.
Religion should stay out of younger grade level schools. Maybe highschool teachers, who dont have to be experts in everything, could handle it. If one teacher had their degree in religious studies... I would feel comfortable allowing my child in that class... in fact, I would fight to make it mandatory.
Religios tolerance is something we desperately need in our society... but its something that can't be taught. It has to be seen.
GwenofAir raised an issue that I should have thought of in presenting my debate. A lot of teachers aren't educated in the field enough. As I go to a parochial school most of my religion teachers do understand these religions to a decent extent to teach the basics, so I don't this bias experience.
However in parish religious ed the teachers are volunteer and they generally don't hold religous degrees and may also be quite biased, this is obviously not the best place to teach tolerance.
Further, Gwen is right, a 2nd Grade teacher would probably know as much about hinduism as I do, which is to say little to none.
But perhaps at the very least a respect for all religions equally should be instilled. At least tell the kids that every religion has merit, no religion is necessarily better than another. Judaism is no better than Christianity, nor is Christianity better than Islam and so on.
This is probably not going to happen because it won't even be addressed. Instead kids will remain with the instillment that their religion and God is supreme and all others are wrong.
"We need help, the poet reckoned" Edward Dorn
"That's just my opinion...I could be wrong"
Posts: 48 | Location: Boston, Massachusetts USA | Registered: 05-02-01
i understand that people all believe different things, but our country is based upon the christian religion and so i believe that you should be able to communicate your views in school, as well as pray etc. obviously, no one should be forced to believe anything however you should be able to be who you want to be.
Posts: 7 | Location: richmond va | Registered: 04-30-01
1st You do too have the right to be who you want to be. If the school ever tells you not to practice your religion then you could sue their @$$ off. Sepration of church and state ONLY applies to state officials, not individuals.
2nd While our country was founded bychristians, it was on religious freedom.
((( Can somebody tell me where people get the idea that this country was based on Christianity, or where they get the idea that separation of church ans state ever applied to individuals. I've heard these arguments several times and I'm just curious. )))
+++Seth_X+++
~~~ "If you feed a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for life." ( Japanese Proverb )
Posts: 315 | Location: M.B. , CA. , USA , Sol System , Milkey Way , Virgo Cluster , X_Supercluster , The Universe | Registered: 03-14-01
Fair - when I discussed my points on Religion in the school, I wasn't talking about a class on comparative religions for high school students. (Took some of those myself in college, found it fascinating.) I think this debate is more about prayer and institutionalized religion in the broader sense - religious symbols in classrooms, required prayer,and curriculae developed along the lines of religious belief. That's not the same thing as a class or two on the different religions.
Rachelann: you say: i understand that people all believe different things, but our country is based upon the christian religion and so i believe that you should be able to communicate your views in school, as well as pray etc. obviously, no one should be forced to believe anything however you should be able to be who you want to be.
Nope - it was not based on the christian religion. It was founded by protestants, but the religious oppression the founding fathers suffered in their native countries was one of the reasons our constitution Mandates SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Please read several other debate threads on this topic. I can't respond to the rest of your comment, because it's late, and I don't have the mental wherewithal to decipher your run-on sentence. But it seems to be twisting around on itself between a 'yes' to school prayer but a 'no' to school religion, so I think you contradicted yourself.
As Lady Macbeth said: Do not stand upon the order of your leaving, just get the heck out of here! (thanks RBG)
In no way should religion be authorized unless in a religion class that gives only positive and necessary viewpoints on all religions. I am a minority and know persecution; the status quo is not good. There are far too many inherent barriers in society, now, for a fair system of religious discussion. Until people stop making unresearched decisions regarding their beliefs toward one another, it is not a good time to discuss this topic.
It was founded by protestants, but the religious oppression the founding fathers suffered in their native countries was one of the reasons our constitution Mandates SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
Where exactly is this phrase used in the U.S. Constitution?
Klep
