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Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope:
'Freedom' and 'human nature' are little more than empty concepts requiring self-serving definitions.

If I ask you to define what they are, I'll merely hear a bunch of definitions that describe America's system, assuming it to be the be-all-and-end-all of human governance without question.

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Yeah so? Except where have I said they are defined by some divine dogma? I haven't.

boh, sometimes I think you might be Eeyore from Pooh Corner, you know.

"The old grey donkey, Eeyore stood by himself in a thistly corner of the Forest, his front feet well apart, his head on one side, and thought about things. Sometimes he thought sadly to himself, "Why?" and sometimes he thought, "Wherefore?" and sometimes he thought, "Inasmuch as which?" and sometimes he didn't quite know what he was thinking about."

History is a good enough indicator for a workable concept of human nature. What really is the point of intellectualising evidence out of existence as if the definitive truth of everything lies somewhere within the vortex of your personal thought processes? We have a pretty good account of the story of democracy since before the time of the warring Spartans and Athenians and how humans generally cleave desperately to the safety of dependancy, even if that means surrendering their voice and choice to some tyrannical dictator. We call it Stokholm Syndrome these days.

Freedom is as freedom does. Human nature is as human nature does.

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'Freedom', from another perspective, is an overarching economic bully pulling the strings to create pollution hell-holes like Japan, Mexico and Korea, messed up inferno's like Iraq or pockled lands of death like Afghanistan (as if it could not 'die' more).

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...and then your South Africas odd twist on 'freedom' as it continues to neglect employing its considerable economic powers against its neighbours tormented at the hands of Mugabe... the 'freedom fighter'.

Freedom is as freedom does. If you don't claim dibs on it, Mugabe or someone else will, except then you may not have the voice and choice to challenge that version of 'freedom'.

"Through your eyes, I saw within and found who I've become"

Why does everyone bring up South Africa to 'discredit' any points I make? Just because of my nationality, I am held hostage to the things their incompetant government chooses to do that I have never voted for, nor have ever agreed with. Besides, I'm a naturalised Australian. I dont hear you chiming on about how rubbish John Howard was, selling our livelihood to the americans for a needless FTA.

Essentially, you're saying 'freedom' is a joust for supremacy over claimed ideologies that are not justified, but must be fought for because they are 'ours'. It's dominion, and I actually agree with you. They cannot be justified, and there is a big swig of relativism in that observation. None of us is either 'right or wrong', just 'superior'. We should enjoy it while it lasts, given the EU and China are just itching to pull the trigger.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

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Why does everyone bring up South Africa to 'discredit' any points I make? Just because of my nationality, I am held hostage to the things their incompetant government chooses to do that I have never voted for, nor have ever agreed with.

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BofH complaining about being a victim of inference? This will be a great place to bookmark for future reference.

Ha ha ha. What an interesting week of benchmarks. Fuzzies says Astrology, a system void of scientific verifiability and an example of data mining, and survivorship bias, at its absolute worst is: “just a bit of harmless fun at best.” And then BofH complains about being the victim of guilt by association.

I think I am going to go out and buy a Fritter this morning using the logic, “its healthy because I say it is.” Where is Twister to make sense of it all?

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"In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis

Im not a victim of anything. Im baffled by how people find this a 'scathing critique' of anything I say. Consider that whenever someone says something along the SA-lines, I actually agree with most of it. It proves nothing, and is little more than juvenile.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

I'm reading an interesting book by Vincent Bugliosi called "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder."

It's interesting in that it does not go down the usual routes of criticism (e.g. he dismisses Michael Moore as somewhat incompetent with his own agenda). He makes a case on evidence alone that Bush knowingly started the war on a lie. There is no speculation, there is no innuendo.

I just wondered if anyone had read it.

Get Curious!

With so much else going on in the world I feel that the British withdrawal of troops from Iraq has received little publicity.

I'm very, very happy.
And very sorry for those who have lost their lives in Iraq. Lend them a thought for a moment.

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And very sorry for those who have lost their lives in Iraq. Lend them a thought for a moment.

Saddam too?

Yes.

Asa, how long have we been having this argument, mmm? It must be nigh on 6 years. Saddam had a lot of good dictatoring years left in him and it wasn't going to be any prettier than it was back in the 80's, 90's and beyond. Everyone knows he was a fatal infection. Yes, it would have been better to see him rot out the rest of his life in a confined living purgatory absorbing the legacy of his infectious life on millions of people, but although the Iraqis decided otherwise, I never once heard any lefties offering up prayers for the repose of Saddams soul.

This was reported 3 weeks ago...

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But the most pleasant surprise has been Mr. Obama's near-about face on Iraq since becoming President.

Speaking to GIs in one of Saddam Hussein's old palaces, Mr. Obama ticked off America's accomplishments in Iraq: "From getting rid of Saddam, to reducing violence, to stabilizing the country, to facilitating elections -- you have given Iraq the opportunity to stand on its own as a democratic country. That is an extraordinary achievement."

http://online.wsj.com/article/...914573569198811.html

The Brits are pulling back and that's fine. The job isn't done but neither was it in Singapore in '41. meh. The Aussies are still in Iraq sorting the shit.

Why only this week they were thinking of Fuzzies and asking about this killing gays pulava.

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Tuesday, 21 April 2009 - The Rudd Government has sought answers to claims that 25 men and boys were killed in anti-gay attacks in Baghdad in the last month.

“Concerned by media reports that homosexual men have been the target of violence and extra-judicial killings in Iraq, officials in Canberra have raised these concerns with the Iraqi Ambassador to Australia [Ghanim Al Shibli],” a spokeswoman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said.

“Australia is a principled advocate of human rights for all and supported the statement on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation at the 63rd United Nations General Assembly on 18 December 2008.”

Australia’s Ambassador to Iraq, Bob Tyson, also raised human rights protections for minority groups, including gay Iraqis, during discussions with the Iraqi government in February.

http://www.starobserver.com.au...qs-gay-killings/5711

The world is a better place for the hard decisions made by those with foresight longer than the tip of their noses.

I hadn't thought deeper than the fact that someone had been deprived of their life.
If one is happy with capital punishment then, I presume, the death of Saddam requires no thought.

I am not happy with capital punishment and very unhappy with the peculiar charges that were brought against Saddam. (In effect, he was convicted of using capital punishment on those who had tried to assassinate him!)
I might have understood better if he had been charged with genocide.

The job isn't done but neither was it in Singapore in '41. meh.
What job?
Do you mean that Iraq is to be brought to a peaceful state, friend of the west, supplying oil to the west at little or no charge because Iraq has to pay for the cost to America of waging an illegal war?

Or do you mean ridding Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction that could have been launched in less than an hour to strike the west? (Which, after all, is the basis on which my government voted and therefore gave the UK the authority to go to war.)

History is the leveler. The place where outcomes will take their place of importance over and above the politics of the day.

Saddams Iraq was the enabler of growth of a particularly nasty terrorism in Al Quaeda The portal of entry to our world for a metastasizing scourge on the essence of democratic freedom. Talk about weapons of mass destruction where humans convert themselves into walking/driving/flying bombs!

I think there is a time, place and context to afford due respect to the death of a character such as Saddam but definitely not as a vilification of those who stopped him in his monstrous tracks. Time will settle upon a perspective that isn’t all about my or your political colours as far as these issues are concerned.

No matter how often it is said there is still this peculiar belief that Saddam and Al Qaeda were linked.
Wrong.
The Sept 11 Commission said so here
and so did the Pentagon here

So history tells us that Bush lied through his teeth and waged an illegal war that resulted in (conservatively) tens of thousands of deaths.
History tells us that he ignored evidence from all the intelligence agencies that proved there were no wmds and knowingly allowed 'manufactured' and uncorroborated evidence to be presented.

etc.

And no-one cares.
'Cept the Iraqis, of course; they're just glad to have a freely elected government (of the etc. etc).
Not that you give a stuff about them, of course.
So, justified? Yep, I'd say so!

(Such a pity there ain't no-one here to read my perfectly manicured arguments!)