This new thread is the first installment towards "resurrecting" QL's popular What makes Jesus so special? thread begun by igotseatackfunk 1-18-05. After the original thread was accidently vaporized, I searched my hard drive and was able to retrieve (guessing) the first 3 of 12 QL webpages of QLers' replies; Many thanks to enola who forwarded to me 2 QL webpages that comprise 10 of the most recent replies (hurrah!); that said, we have "bookends" of the orig. thread but lack the orig. internal pages (unless a QLer has them saved and would be willing to share?).
While I am not able to render the original emoticons, signatures nor emphases of every individual QLer, I have tried to faithfully reproduce the thread to the best of my limited html abilities and memory. If you find an egregious mistake in my replication, please contact one of the DF mods as they are under no time limit in which to edit/correct posts.
In a rich text file, the recovered posts are approx. 40 pages long, so bear with me for the rest of this week as I chip away at this task of restoration. I anticipate reproducing approx. 8 or so text pages at a time, posting them serially. When I have completed the job, I'll conclude with a blue font notice to the effect "Let the games continue!"
(Another way to discern this thread is ready for DF resumption is to be aware the final post, pre-vaporization, was by klmsc dated 04-27-06 06:30 PM; when you see it appear on this thead, know "we are good to go!") Until then.......
Thanks for your patience. Aire
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
So he supposedly died for all of our sins, which is a noble cause in itself, but does that make jesus really that special? or at least to the point of worship. There are lot's of people who have died to free others. and yes Jesus did it for everyone, but I comprehend why we see him as a divine being. He was the Son of God, but aren't we all?, he had a profound message to give us, and with his death did he want us to worship him or carry on his message? we can't do both because that would be against his will, and his will is God's, so we would be going against God's will to worship Jesus, or even Worship God, we are told to live in his name, but does that mean Worship him. In my opinion we are here to Love and make mistakes, they go hand in hand.
I could be way off base here, but I may not be. Let's hear what everyone else thinks?
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
quote: Jesus did it for everyone, but I comprehend why we see him as a divine being.
Assumption.
quote: He was the Son of God
Assumption.
quote: he had a profound message to give us, and with his death did he want us to worship him or carry on his message?
Assumption.
quote: we can't do both because that would be against his will, and his will is God's, so we would be going against God's will to worship Jesus, or even Worship God, we are told to live in his name, but does that mean Worship him.
Assumption.
"It's not premarital sex if you don't plan on getting married" [Smile] Posts: 2596 | From: Siam | Registered: 10-21-02
inky_fingers Member posted 01-18-05 10:37 PM
Oh Knock Out!
In tying to sound intelligent it makes you sound highly obtuse.
You know exactly what he is refering to, show your stuff my man, or else I will start to lose faith in you.
igotseatacfunk, I am extremely interested in this topic, you brought up some exceedingly strong topics. I'll be back soon... [Evil LOL]
"There is nothing more terrifying than ignorance in action." -Geothe Posts: 47 | From: Washington, USA | Registered: 11-16-04
Airedale Senior Member posted 01-19-05 06:29 AM
In a word....... resurrection out from among the dead in his own dunamos -power. Nor did he resurrect only to die again; it was his promised "down payment" that there will be a Final Resurrection at the end of the age for all mankind... a sober promise that all wrongs will be righted... an ironic finish to the bittersweet epic of Adam's race.
For contemporaries who had witnessed this rabbi's bloody execution on a Roman stake, hanging between two criminals above the town garbage heap, and who then days later were able to speak, handle, and break bread with him, it was an amazing feat, experienced by his closest friends and at least on one occasion by a crowd of 500. After 40 days, his talmidim-disciples watched him ascend into heaven with instructions to wait in Jerusalem for supernatural leading (which occurred fortuitously on Shavuot, the Feast of Firstfruits).
When former White House lawyer Chuck Colson was indicted for his participation in Watergate in the early 1970s, he began reading the biblical Gospel accounts of Yeshua's resurrection; he said (paraphrase): "I understand cover-ups, lying, and deception, so when I read the Scriptures' account of how Jesus' disciples obstinately refused to deviate from their message that Yeshua had risen out from among the dead, I had to weigh seriously the evidence that they went to their deaths (some violently executed) not recanting. No one connected to Watergate would have done that for President Nixon."
By contrast, the remains of Buddha, Plato, Gandhi, Joseph Smith, etc. lie a'mouldering.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead
[This message was edited by Airedale on 01-19-05 at 06:37 AM.] (Edit: spell corrections at Airedale's request)
[This message was edited by EmeraldEyes on 01-19-05 at 08:29 AM.] Posts: 1140 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
hastemyday Member posted 01-19-05 11:22 AM
He didn't just die for us as a message he did it to save us and give us a choice not to burn in the depth.
quote:He didn't just die for us as a message he did it to save us and give us a choice not to burn in the depth.
It doesn't much matter why he died. It matters that he died and is worshipped so highly. If I did the 'Armegeddon' thing and personally blew up an asteroid that would whipe out all humanity, would I receive the name 'Lord'? Would I be worshipped for thousands of years for what I had done? No, I would perhaps have a monument erected in every capital of the world at most. And I would be a proven saviour. People would know I had saved everything on this planet. Yet Jesus would still be held in a higher regard. Why? He was Human, after all. Just a man.
If you call a mountain "Religion", then the river that flows from it would be aptly named "Evil" - Myself Posts: 975 | From: England | Registered: 04-13-02
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 01-19-05 12:48 PM
quote: He was Human, after all. Just a man.
He also died for our sins. He saved us from eternal damnation. He is son of god.
So if we worship both Jesus and God. Doesn't that make us polytheists?
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2163 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 01-19-05 06:47 PM
I think the worship of Christ is an assumption made on your part.
A quick basic christian theology: Christians are thankful to Christ, but worship God.
The worship of Jesus, as stated by Christ himself, is wrong.
~~ ~~ I am you, and you are mine. ~~ ~~ A short, meaningless reference to U2... [This message was edited by Beacon-of-Hope on 01-19-05 at 06:58 PM.] Posts: 54 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 01-19-05 07:04 PM
Originally posted by Skeg:
quote:He didn't just die for us as a message he did it to save us and give us a choice not to burn in the depth. It doesn't much matter why he died. It matters that he died and is worshipped so highly.
We have to take 'why' into consideration. 'Why' is the reason he is supposedly 'worshiped' (again, an unresearched assumption of theology.)
~~ ~~ I am you, and you are mine. ~~ ~~ A short, meaningless reference to U2... Posts: 54 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
Skeg Member posted 01-19-05 10:09 PM
quote:I think the worship of Christ is an assumption made on your part.
A quick basic christian theology: Christians are thankful to Christ, but worship God.
The worship of Jesus, as stated by Christ himself, is wrong.
Worship
1
a) The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b) The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
3. often Worship -Chiefly British-. Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.
I went to a midnight Carol service on Christmas eve/Christmas day to see what it was all about. We had to read from scriptures that glorify Jesus as the Lord and the Saviour. One line struck me... "We are not even worthy to clear the crumbs beneath your dinner table, oh Lord". That might not be the exact quotation. Other such lines as "You are the devine", were a norm.
Is this not worship? It looks to me like it is.
If you call a mountain "Religion", then the river that flows from it would be aptly named "Evil" - Myself Posts: 975 | From: England | Registered: 04-13-02
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-20-05 12:33 AM
quote: I think the worship of Christ is an assumption made on your part.
That's something i've not really thought about, but in my defense, I will agree with Skeg, I don't think Christians Worship Jesus in the sense that He is the God.
But they do however worship in the sense that he is superior to us. Which like you said :
quote: The worship of Jesus, as stated by Christ himself, is wrong.
I don't think it is wrong to worship Jesus like this, but I am still left wondering why. and once again, skeg mdade a very good point in saying that if he pulled an Armaggedon, no one would worship him, even though he saved all of humanity.
But at the same time i can see that Jesus did not only save those living but all those who were not in creation. He let all those who "sin" know that they can be redeemed. Which is a more noble cause than simple saving humanity... Jesus gave them an infinate number of chances to make amends with their "creator".
quote: A quick basic christian theology: Christians are thankful to Christ, but worship God.
That may be basic christian theology... but, if you look at those who "practice" christianity, they have gotten this confused. I understand what the fundemental principals of Christianity are, They almost Parallel the basic principles of Buddhism in many ways. Tradgically those principles have been distorted throughout time by the Christian Heirarchy to preserve there power and foothold in society.
Fundementally Jesus isn't to be worshiped as you say, but that's just not how it is. and that is my question.. Why is it like that?
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 01-20-05 01:13 AM
Again, as mentioned in countless forums, religeon messes things up.
Technically, we are to accept Jesus as our savior, who lead us to God.
If discussing trinitarian christianity, it is composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
God, being the father is a seperate entity, who utilized the son (Christ), or worked through him, as the spiritualists would say, for his own means. The Holy Spirit is what is in place today, which would explain the rantings of the Pentacostal/Charismatic wave across America.
God is still the pinacle of the trinity. Jesus as lord can still be a fuzzy area for most (as pointed out by Skeg). Christians are so called, as they are followers of the teachings of Christ. What are the teachings? In short, he corrected the teachings of the old testament, yet the predominant teaching is the worship of God.
What makes Jesus special? For one thing, he corrected teachings that had been presumed as proper for the past age, anywhere well in excess of seven thousand years. Christianity is less than 1800 years old. As Christianity is the most dominant of religeons in the world today, that makes him a pretty special revolutionary.
This of course, from an 18 year old punk who has been too ignorant, blind and adholescant to care to read Bible Fraud, and all the other paraphenalia that is associated with the degradation of Christ. Poor me.
Posts: 54 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
KnockOut Quotation Fanatic posted 01-20-05 03:32 AM
quote: By contrast, the remains of Buddha, Plato, Gandhi, Joseph Smith, etc. lie a'mouldering.
You mean because the assumption of our story isn’t as good as yours?
"It's not premarital sex if you don't plan on getting married" [Smile] Posts: 2596 | From: Siam | Registered: 10-21-02
hastemyday Member posted 01-20-05 11:02 AM
quote:"It doesn't much matter why he died. It matters that he died and is worshipped so highly. If I did the 'Armegeddon' thing and personally blew up an asteroid that would whipe out all humanity, would I receive the name 'Lord'? Would I be worshipped for thousands of years for what I had done? No, I would perhaps have a monument erected in every capital of the world at most. And I would be a proven saviour. People would know I had saved everything on this planet. Yet Jesus would still be held in a higher regard. Why? He was Human, after all. Just a man."
Can just a man be ressurected in 3 days? His purpose to live here on earth was to just do exactly that die for you.
Beacon, as well versed your arguement, this is not a debate of who is worshiped, God or Jesus, but Why is Jesus worshiped by those who choose to.
He is worshiped because He was the Only Son of God, he preformed miracles that no other man had ever done, or has ever repeated.(some may have been repeated, but their validity is questioned, because if it was a valid miracle that was performed, it would lessen the diviness of Jesus. in a sense someone else performing a miracle like Jesus would make Him less unique and revered.) He was also worshiped because he was the means to which man could redeem himself. He also, Like beacon said before, Corrected the teachings of the old testement. He went against the grain of the Pharisees by openly healing, preaching, and helping those that the Pharisees, in a way, abandonded. These people were the prostitutes, drunks, theives, and probably even killers of the time.
There are many reasons to worship Christ, but there are reasons why he shouldn't be worshiped too: He was the Son of God, not God itself. He preformed his miracles by the will of God, not the will of himself. He himself did not want to be worshipd, but to be seen as the way to a relationship with God. He preached that by opening your heart to Him, than God will be there. and ultimately he is not to be worshiped, because in the end he was just a man. An extarordianry man, but a man none-the-less.
quote: This of course, from an 18 year old punk who has been too ignorant, blind and adholescant to care to read Bible Fraud, and all the other paraphenalia that is associated with the degradation of Christ. Poor me.
Please don't belittle me, when you know nothing about me. That comment was based on your assumptions. I'm not as ignorant, nor blind or adholescant as one might think. inexperianced.. yes, but ignorant, blind, and adholescant no.
That comment was ignorant, blind, and adholescant in itself. Combating the above with themselves gets you know where. Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Skeg Member posted 01-20-05 12:27 PM
quote:Again, as mentioned in countless forums, religeon messes things up.
So what are you saying? That Christians have got it all wrong? You mean to say millions of people sit in church every Sunday morning and say the wrong things? What they were saying, some of which were pulled from the bible. Surely, you're not stating that the bible is wrong?
And don't give me any mis-interpritation-through-time garbage or translation errors. Christians clearly worship Jesus, which according to the one true authority, is wrong.
quote: and once again, skeg mdade a very good point in saying that if he pulled an Armaggedon, no one would worship him, even though he saved all of humanity.
But at the same time i can see that Jesus did not only save those living but all those who were not in creation. He let all those who "sin" know that they can be redeemed. Which is a more noble cause than simple saving humanity.
Isn't it the same thing? If you save all of humanity, aren't you also saving those that aren't in creation yet? They would never be created if their creators are dead.
quote:Can just a man be ressurected in 3 days? His purpose to live here on earth was to just do exactly that die for you.
But he WAS just a man, was he not? He was mortal. He was a male Human Being. The miracles he performed were God acting through Jesus to show everybody how great he was. Like magic tricks.
quote:It does not make us polytheistic Christians believe that Jesus God and The Holy spirit are one. We worship one God.
And his son Jesus. This is the point. Jesus doesn't want to be worshipped, God says don't worship my boy, Christians worship him. Making sense?
If you call a mountain "Religion", then the river that flows from it would be aptly named "Evil" - Myself Posts: 975 | From: England | Registered: 04-13-02
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-21-05 10:35 AM
That is almost exactly my point skeg. I don't think it makes much sense to worship him. And i wonder where people got the idea to do so.
In my opinion, i think it was deliberately done by the church hierachry in order to preserve their power in a male dominated society. I think their idea was, Worship Jesus to have a relationship with God. And the only way to Jesus is through Our Church.
It probably made people think that if they didn't go with their clergy, then they spend an eternity suffering... If you were back then what would you do? An uneducated peasant wouldn't have much else of a moral choice... The choices were, don't go along with it and suffer for all eternaty. Or, Go along with it and spent eternaty with God in his kingdom. What would you do in a situation like that? I know i would go along with it.
Even after we know that we ought not to be worshiping Jesus, A majority of Christians still do it. Apparently Tradition is not an easy thing to change.
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 01-21-05 12:56 PM
quote: I don't think it makes much sense to worship him. And i wonder where people got the idea to do so.
Because Jesus did say it. Pick your book Matthew ect., he does say the only way to the heavenly father is through him.
[[ACLU Execution Watch Counter]] ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2163 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
Dogsi Member posted 01-21-05 03:26 PM
jesus = god. Simply one of his persona's. At least that was always my take on it.
Posts: 55 | From: yokosuka, Japan | Registered: 01-01-05
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-21-05 08:55 PM
quote: he does say the only way to the heavenly father is through him.
That's what has gotten misinterperated. and where i believe the bible should not be taken literally. When he says through me... i believe that he is saying through my actions.. a,do as i do kind of thing.
I too could be misinterperating it, but it makes more sense to me. I would think that having to go through a second party to get to the Almighty is contradictory to his teachings. AHHH I must go... emergency situation... please hold for the rest of this post...
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Dogsi Member posted 01-21-05 09:18 PM
Nah, I don't entirely agree with you. If that was the only sentence taken in to consideration I might buy that. However, there's a couple thousand other pages to be taken in to consideration.
Posts: 55 | From: yokosuka, Japan | Registered: 01-01-05
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-22-05 03:13 AM
I know, have you read them? It's probalby the most vague, unspecific book of books that mankind has ever come across and compiled. If it's message was clear, than it wouldn't be debated so much.
The rest of those thousands of pages, like that sentence, which isn't a direct quote by the way, is pure hersey. It was writtin years after Jesus' death, and supposedly wasn't even by those the books are titled after. So, it's like a story of a story... some cultures call them legends, stories passed down through generations. I mean if they really were written by Matthew Mark Luke and John, then they all would have been over 100 years old,and if not then almost 100.
Granted they are all wonderful stories... I find it more than difficult to take them literally, Plus all of the books don't tell the same story. Matthew, Mark and Luke are all very smililar, but then John comes out of nowhere and mentions things the others failed to mention... and where something may be mentioned in the three, it is nt mentioned in John. It was told from four different accounts, so which one is more accurate? I say they are all inaccurate, I mean they talk about his birth.. and there is like a thirty year gap until they continue with his life?, what happened in those "lost years" is unknown, maybe he visited India or something, maybe he was an outlaw and then redeemed himself, I cannot say. and neither can anyone else, unless they were there. and sadly if they were they are long since dead.
You can read and analyze the Bible 50 million times, and you would not come any closer to understanding it. there are so many ways to interperet it that to say one way is correct, is kind of pointless.
So now i ask, Why do some people worship Jesus when his exact past isn't even complete. There is a lot we know about Jesus, but a lot more we don't know.
If someone can show me something i haven't seen before,that is also convincing, then i'll seriously began to see jesus as more divine, but until then.. i'll still ask why.
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Dogsi Member posted 01-22-05 09:26 AM
Stop and think what you are doing.
God gave a message to mankind. Mankind, being the imperfect beings that we are, have of course altered and misinterpreted it. However, the basic morals and reasons for the story are still there, unaltered. You are looking at an imperfect work that man screwed up and asking why it is screwed up. Simple, it is in the hands of man.
As for what reason is there to beleive the bible is true at all... there is none... except when I read it, when I pray, when I give thanks to god for making existence as we know it and giving us this wonderful life... when I do these things, I have a feeling inside of me that I can not deny. A feeling that nothing else can copy or fill. Do I KNOW that christians have the right path and everyone else is wrong? Nope. However, it doesn't change how I feel about it.
Also, of course it is vague. If it was precise, the religion would have been disproven and wiped off the face of the planet as was every other religion that made the mistake of being specific on details. The fact that it is still around along with other religions means none of it is solid fact. If it was, it would either be gone or the only real religion left.
Posts: 55 | From: yokosuka, Japan | Registered: 01-01-05
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-22-05 01:29 PM
.... I think i missed our point.
little help?
I used the vagueness of the bible to make a point about people worhsipping Jesus. You just stated what you believe, and nothing about Jesus...
Your beleifs are your own and I respect that. But that doesn't attempt to answer what makes Jesus so special.
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
>>>>PLEASE DO NOT -- YET -- REPLY TO THIS THREAD LEST YOU SCREW UP THE CORRECT CHRONOLOGY.<<<<<
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
Posts: 55 | From: yokosuka, Japan | Registered: 01-01-05
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-23-05 04:32 AM
No, it's not...
If Jesus=God, Than I=God, and You=God, everyone=God.
Jesus was a man. No more or no less of a man than I or anyone else.
God spoke to Jesus and told jesus waht it was that he needed to do. Just as He told Noah, and Jacob, and David, etc etc... They were mere men, men with faults. Although the bible says no faults of Jesus, that still doesn't mean he didn't have any.
Jesus was just a man, and like i said before, he was an extraordinary man. Saying Jesus=God doesn't do anything for your arguement.. which i'm still not sure what that is. When dealing with people like me you have to show me something. Something convincing.
You know my reasons, lets hear yours.
Posts: 29 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Dogsi Member posted 01-23-05 09:36 AM
read the bible dude, jesus = god. He is the embodyment of god. God in mortal form. You are thinking to limited on what god is. As for you saying that would make you = god. Well, so you say you = jesus then? Well, good to know that you are god personified, can you do some favors for me? :-P
Posts: 55 | From: yokosuka, Japan | Registered: 01-01-05
Airedale Senior Member posted 01-23-05 09:53 AM
igotseatacfunk:
The DF heading is "What makes Jesus so special?" You seem to be arguing that a rabbi, whose unique life is recognized everytime the Western world writes "2005 AD" or obliquely alludes to it in "2005 CE", is not special, correct?
quote:When dealing with people like me you have to show me something. Something convincing.
And what would that be?
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Posts: 1140 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
rarefied Junior Member posted 01-23-05 11:18 AM
Heh, I just came to this site by accident and read through these posts. I have a question and perhaps a couple of comments. First, where does Jesus say NOT to worship him? Second, I totally see where you're coming from with the "Aren't we all children of God," thing. Had/has me confused too. In fact doesn't Jesus mostly refer to himself as "The Son of Man." What is that supposed to mean?
Look man, I consider myself a Christian, despite these and many other questions, basically because, like someone else said, when I pray to God and when I try to follow Jesus' teachings, I feel something in my heart. Does this mean the other religions are all wrong? Many would say yes, I don't think so, though.
Posts: 1 | Registered: 01-23-05
luvleetasha Moderator posted 01-25-05 06:29 AM
igotseatacfunk
quote: and like I said before, Jesus is not the intermediary to Heaven, You do not have to have personal relationship with him to get into heaven. and by Though him, he more than likely meant, through his teachings.
Jesus Is the way. Faith in what the Word (Jesus' blood paid the price for our sins and rectified us to commune with our perfect Lord) means. No works are going gain a spirit everlasting life if there is no faith involved. And when "by grace we are saved through faith"Ephesians 2: 8-9 we sinners become justified and The Holy Spirit gets involved, allowing us the strength and wisdom needed to grow(achieve works) in Christ. Thus begins a Great Journey, an everlasting journey.
an afterthought:
IMO to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is greatest gift there ever was.
Time and again since my tenure here I've seen "disrespectful" clashes, leading to the locking of posts (repression and resentment), the leaving of good quality members(still more resentment), and the out and out banning of some(unending resentment). Posts: 1893 | From: MI | Registered: 01-07-03
igotseatacfunk Member posted 01-25-05 10:01 AM
quote: Jesus' blood paid the price for our sins and rectified us to commune with our perfect Lord
That was a part of his message. The main part in my opinion. He died for our sins to show us a kind of love that allowed us to salvage our souls. By dieing for our sins, Jesus showed us to love our enemys as we love our families and friends. He showed us that Love knows no boundries. Don't look at it as a personal favor he did for humanity. He did it to show us the way. Not be the way.
I'm not saying have a personal relationship is a bad thing, It, however, is not necessary in order to gain entry into the kingdom of heaven. What is necessary is to live his teachings, not just understand it.
Posts: 36 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Airedale Senior Member posted 01-25-05 10:40 AM
quote:Originally posted by igotseatacfunk: He did it to show us the way. Not be the way.I'm afraid this proposition stands in stark contrast to the Greek text of the NT.
Yeshua:
"I am the way [Grk: he hodos, "the road, path" (not a path), the Truth [Grk: he aletheia], and the life [Grk: he zoe]; no one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)
In the Greek text there's no ambivalence of meaning; Yeshua's "I am" is intensified with the force of the meaning being, "I and I alone in contradistinction to all others....."
Prior to his death and resurrection, rumors recorded in the NT accounts estimated the Nazarene's identity as that of a madman, Satan incarnate, a prophet -- possibly Elijah or Jeremiah, a teacher come from God, the Anointed One (Messiah), the Savior of the world, a good man, a deceiver, or a bastard.
My sense is that most participants in this thread have little or only a casual acquaintance with the biblical accounts regarding Jesus' identity, his teachings, and his self-confessed mission.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Posts: 1145 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 01-25-05 10:47 AM
I beg to differ to Airedale. I would consider myself a notch above "casual acquaintance".
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2167 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
Airedale Senior Member posted 01-25-05 10:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by Ladon: I beg to differ to Airedale. I would consider myself a notch above "casual acquaintance".
Duly noted, Ladon, and mea culpa. [Wink] It was easy to overlook you as you haven't been on this thread much.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Posts: 1145 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
yellowfairy Member posted 01-25-05 04:21 PM
seems to me that dogsi, is the only one who knows even a little about god, jesus, christianity etc. I am a christian and have been one for 20 years of my 20 years on earth. Dogsi is exactly correct, jesus is god. They are one and the same. Jesus, was god in human form, that is why he is so special igotseatcfunk! Don't forget he was beaten to a bloody pulp, unrecognizable as a man, before he died. He died for you, for me, for everysingle human being on the planet. Because of adam and eve's sin, we are all tainted and all fall short of God's glory. Therefore, when we die, we would automatically go to hell, because the perfection with which god created adam was gone. Jesus died to change that, it is as simple as this. He came down in human form through a virgin birth. ( IF, as you say, jesus,was just a man, then show me another in the history of the world, who was born of a virgin. ) His sole purpose was to die for mankind so that they may enter the kingdom of god. Now, all you have to do is accept him in your heart, and you will earn eternal life with him forever. This is the embodiment of christianity. of born-again christianity. And please no one call christians religious or a religion. God hates religion, it is evil and only creates chaos and evil. christian, means, little christ, all it means is you believe in god. That is why jesus is so special. ghandis'tomb is full, hare chrishnas is full, budhhas is full, joe smith's tomb is full. JESUS's tomb is empty. And for those of you who claim to be christian and then say that other "religions" are not false, you are not a christian, so please do not taint it's name with your blatant ignorance. Jesus loves every single one of you no matter what, he does not judge, he forgives countless sins, over and over again. He is God and the holy spirit in one. IF you Don't realize why countless people on earth and in heaven, so lovingly worship him each and everyday, then you obviously know nothing about him, the bible, or christianity, therefore, your comments on it, and assumptions of it are rather obsolete.
I have a question, why is there a topic about it? if you beleive that jesus should not be worshiped, then don't worship him. I take it you are not a christian, so why the interest in what christians do? I am not offended at all, I am truly curious about your curiosity. Smile
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: 499 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 01-25-05 05:23 PM
How could you have been Christian for 20 years when you are only 20 years old? Were you born with an innate belief in Yhwh that I didn't have? Or was I born with it too and somehow didn't achieve your level of belief? Are all people born with such innanteness?
quote: Because of adam and eve's sin, we are all tainted and all fall short of God's glory. Therefore, when we die, we would automatically go to hell, because the perfection with which god created adam was gone. Jesus died to change that, it is as simple as this.
Didnt Paul write up Original Sin? Well whomever it was, is it that Original Sin didn't exist prior to whomever wrote it or did it always exist and all the people prior to when it was written were seemingly unaware of it? If the Jews were his chosen people I would figure that he might include them in on the master plan.
Also a consideration is that if Jesus is Yhwh then Jesus didn't actually die and resurrect himself. Since Yhwh is immortal and Jesus is Yhwh, then Jesus didn't die. Again, he tricked us. One of these days Yhwh.... Wink
quote: jesus is god. They are one and the same. Jesus, was god in human form
If this is true, why didn't Jesus call himself Yhwh then? It would appear as though Jesus, Yhwh, and the holy ghost didn't get that memo about being the same thing until it was written into Catholic dogma a few centuries after Jesus lived. Was Yhwh pulling a fast one on us? That Yhwh should get a spot on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno, he's a character I tell you.
quote: He came down in human form through a virgin birth. ( IF, as you say, jesus,was just a man, then show me another in the history of the world, who was born of a virgin.)
Who's to say it was actually a virgin birth? Maybe Yhwh took a greek god's route and did the deed himself. Was anybody there to see that nothing happened and Mary popped out one with no "mechnical intervention"? I know in "Jesus of Nazareth" the movie, there was a bright light that shown down on Mary's abdomen, who's to say that isn't Yhwh's "seed"?
Virgin birth makes an interesting proposition. Does that mean Jesus was a fully genetic representation of Yhwh, half of Jesus' DNA is Yhwh and the other half is Mary, or is it all Mary's? Godly genetic biology is a tricky business.
quote:His sole purpose was to die for mankind so that they may enter the kingdom of god.
You mean to say that it was Yhwh's sole purpose to die for mankind so that we may enter yhwh's kingdom of himself? Because you defined Yhwh and Jesus as the same substance.
quote: And for those of you who claim to be christian and then say that other "religions" are not false, you are not a christian, so please do not taint it's name with your blatant ignorance
Hummm, I guess that throw's forgiveness out the window. Down with the heathen's right?
quote: christian, means, little christ, all it means is you believe in god.
So if I believe in Yhwh I am Christian. Well Jews believe in Yhwh but they are Jews not Christians. Muslims were born out of the Jewish faith, does that make them Christians too? Hot damn, were all a big family.
quote: ghandis'tomb is full, hare chrishnas is full, budhhas is full, joe smith's tomb is full. JESUS's tomb is empty.
First off, Ghandi and Buddha did not attribute tothemselves god status. Trust me, I've read Ghandi's autobiography and I've read works which can be attributed directly to Buddha. Neither says they are or godly status.
It also makes since that Yhwh wouldnt be in the tomb anymore, he had things to do, such as: destroy trailer parks with tornados and make the next tissue pop up in the kleenex box.
quote: Jesus loves every single one of you no matter what, he does not judge, he forgives countless sins, over and over again.
Unless you happen to be non-christian. Which then you're screwed. But since Christianity includes about half of the world religious believers it should be good.
quote: IF you Don't realize why countless people on earth and in heaven, so lovingly worship him each and everyday, then you obviously know nothing about him, the bible, or christianity, therefore, your comments on it, and assumptions of it are rather obsolete.
Damn straight! There's no need for such trivial things like rational mature discussion. Justified true belief only is achieved when one's beliefs reach innanity and ridiculousness.
quote: I have a question, why is there a topic about it? if you beleive that jesus should not be worshiped, then don't worship him. I take it you are not a christian, so why the interest in what christians do? I am not offended at all, I am truly curious about your curiosity.
Because I feel like a cultural anthropologist trying to piece together an isolated central african tribe's mythology. Remember, the world was created by a crocodile mating with a dung beetle that had a termite mound for a vulva. It may seem irrational to you but at least crocodiles and dung beetles exist. However, termite mound vulvas do not.
[ACLU Execution Watch Counter] ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* [This message was edited by Ladon on 01-25-05 at 05:32 PM.] Posts: 2850 | From: Illinois | Registered: 09-13-01
>>>>PLEASE DO NOT -- YET -- REPLY TO THIS THREAD LEST YOU SCREW UP THE CORRECT CHRONOLOGY.<<<<<
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
I am so sorry for confusing your minds with my statement of being a christian for 20 years. But as I said, all the word christian means, is that you believe in God. And since God knows us before we are born, then I think it is safe to say that I have always been a christian.
Igotseat etc., where in the world did you read in the bible that jesus says not to worship him? IF your using the last supper as your whole base, then I require accurate proof form the bible that it says not to worship jesus. When jesus washed the dicsiples feet instead, he was showing men how to treat one another. He was being a living example that we should all be "servants" among men. We should all help and serve one another. That is all. what about when Mary Magdalene washed jesus's feet with the oil and her hair? The men told her to stop, that it was a waste. But Jesus, said leave her alone, let her do what she pleases, she knew he was the messiah, and she was serving him. And jesus let her, that shows he was more than just a man. Did you know that he was exposed to all the temptations that fellow men were and he stayed completely sinless and pure? No man is sinless, and completely pure, but he was and is.
It blantanly says in the bible that God, jesus, and the holy spirit are one! how can you say that is doesn't? Is this whole debate a sham? You come on with these questions and wrong assumptions about the topic and you expect me to believe whatever you say? Have you ever read the bible in its entirity? and how did I know you were not born-again, well it is the sole reason why you brought up this topic in the first place. People can say whatever they want about christianity, they can call us liars, say we're crazy, etc. but we shall all see who is right in the end shant we? I mean, think for one second that I am right, just try, is it really too hard to beleive? Is it that far-fetched?
where did you get the notion that people worship Jesus anyways? we worship God and only God, but seeing as how they are connected, and are the same, we are still worshipping God.
igotseat etc. Do you recall the verse spoken by jesus, saying "he who has seen my face has seen the father". What does that mean to you? They are the trinity, and they are one. I realize that may be a little hard to understand, they are many many things the most studious christians do not know, or understand. But that is why they have relationships with God, he reveals things to his children if they ask. how can you call yourself equal to jesus? he was the lamb of God that was slain. Were you sent to die for humnaity, and then ressurected and then sat next to the thrown of God, and made one with him? I think not. Therefore, we are not all god, as you say we are. God created everything! he created man by blowing the dust off his hands, he took adams rib and breathed life into eve. These are pretty different circumstances from the way we give life. judging others and forgiving are not powers, they are attributes that God has given us. No man on earth has the capacity of God's forgiveness. You don't have a clue, do you know that God knows everysingle sin you have ever committed, that he knows every thought you have ever had? and no matter what the sin, if you ask, he will forgive you. That was the purpose in his death! For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believs in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life --john 3:16 if you take nothing from the bible, take this verse. Yes, jesus's sole purpose was die for all our sin so that we would have at least a chance(at our own discretion) at eternal life. it is right in front of your eyes.
Jesus did not come to show us the errors of humnaity, where the heck do you get your info. on god and his will or decisions? he does not need to show us the errors in religion, he blatanly states that he hates it. and we can all see the destruction and idiosyncracies of religion just fine with our own eyes. God does not have to show us the errors of ourselves. we are all born with sin inherently, we know we are flawed, God does not have to "show" us we are. The earth is just the planet that God placed us on, I would think he would rather see us take care of each other rather than the earth. Jesus didn't even want to die for our sins, he was scared to! God is the one who told him that it must be done, and he did it becuase he loved us. But he also did it to save us, not just to show us some spectacle. Who said that we are to die as jesus did? you are not jesus, I am not, there is only one and that was his purpose. Christianity is not a religion, how many times must I say this. And how have born-again christians screwd up jesus's suppossed message of love, through his death? I agree with you about religion and it's traditions and rituals, they are not of God. But don't put me or my bro and sis's in christ in that category. Why don't you have a conversation with a true born-again christian and find out what it means to be one, what they beleive and why. Because you do not seem to know the bible and it's messages at all. are you agnostic? What you say of jesus, and god seem to be of a love nature and love the earth, and love everyone menality, so how could you possibly know anything about the topic, if your logic is filled with fallicies and untruths to begin with?
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 01-26-05 07:05 PM
To Miss YellowFairy,
quote: if your logic is filled with fallicies and untruths to begin with?
You must have some big balls or small brains to say that someone's argument(I am using "argument" to be synonymous with your term "logic") is fallacious. Further for our benefit, could you logically demonstrate how your opponents arguments are fallacious? In addition, provide your argument. Seeing as thus far you've onyl stated that, "I'm right and you're wrong. P.S., you're going to hell."
Is it possible that you, YellowFairy, may have the wrong message?
And if possible, could you respond to me in the future. I know I'm cynical but I offer the best criticisms of your "true" message.
[Keep in mind I am having to splice “saves” off my hard drive here; I suspect I didn’t save replies between 1-26-05 and 2-3-05.] ~ Aire
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Airedale Senior Member posted 02-04-05 09:42 AM
Hmmm, now that I'm back from sunnier climes, I see this debate has taken some interesting twists and turns. I see a lot of (over?)confidence, talking "at" and not "to" one's opponents, humility on hiatus.
Puts me in mind of a book I read recently. Here's an excerpt:
As I was growing up, I never thought of God as a God of love and grace. Instead he was an eye. The eye in the sky. My dad grew up in a church that had a big eye painted on a wall near the youth room. A huge, staring eye. God's eye. Always watching. Always judging. Underneath the picture, words were painted: Be careful little feet what you do. It was enough to scare the hell out of a kid -- literally.
That's the kind of God I grew up with. Even though I was raised in the home of the most famous Pentecostal pastor in the country, I didn't know anything about grace or God's accepting love. To me, God was keeping a giant in-the-sky scorecard, so I'd better live up to his standards or get hit on the head with his big ol' bat. I'd better do everything just right, or I was dead meat....
[The author's father was eventually thrown in prison and he, the son, turned to drugs and alcohol and fury at fairweather friends who deserted his family when they needed friends the most].
One of the greatest lessons I've learned in ministry is to recognize when I'm wrong. I can be wrong, and I can be corrected. You can be wrong and you can be corrected. My favorite band, Social Distortion, has a song called "I Was Wrong."... After I started learning about grace and my freedom in Christ, I had to learn to forgive and show grace to others. Dad showed me the way. He brought a face to grace that I'd never seen before. Dad has ministers over to his house all the time -- people he forgave for hurting him. I used to tell my dad, "That guy's a jerk. Why are you talking to him?" But Dad wanted to live out grace....
If you want to deal with people on a real level, go to a bar. Every Monday night I go to an English pub. I've gotten to know the people there. They've become my close friends, and I've earned their trust....
My pub friends see Christians handing out tracts on the street all the time. They see it as incredibly eerie; it makes them uncomfortable. They say to me, "They're telling us we're sinners and going to hell. See? That's why I'd never be a Christian."
That kind of evangelism makes Christians feel better, not the people they pray for. To me it's a cop-out. Scripture says God won't raise his voice in the streets or snuff out the smallest hope.
~ Jay Bakker [son of Jim Bakker] from the book Stories of Emergence: Moving from Absolute to Authentic
So, to the biblical theists in this thread: Chill out at your local tavern. Big Grin
To the nontheists: Rather than tackle the loaded question of whether Jesus should be worshipped as God, perhaps examine the unexamined assumption in the Debate thread's title: Was Jesus 'so special' at all? Was he even an extraordinary man? If so, how?
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Posts: 1148 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
[Another gap in replies between 2-4-05 and 2-8-05.]
yellowfairy Member posted 02-08-05 05:54 PM
[Beacon-of-Hope apparently quoted yellowfairy (italics) and replied to her; yellowfairy then quoted both herself and BoH below in order to respond thereafter:]
quote:actually, it is on dvd, and in books. There is a man named jesse duplantis, and he has been to heaven. The dvd is called Close encounters of the God kind. There is also a woman named mary baxter, i think, who went to hell, and heaven. She has written books on it. compelling stuff.
no,i have not read peter pan, but I have seen the movie, the message is believing in things you can't see, and don't know anything about. maybe something called faith eh?
Firstly, you completely missed the entire point. I believe in Peter Pan. You think Im crazy for doing so.
Secondly...how do you know this man has gone to heaven?
oh rest assured beacon, I got your entire point clearly. I just do not agree with it. I beleive in God, and Jesus, and the bible. Am I ignorant for this? to some people I probley am, but I really don't care. So you can think I am crazy for doing so, and that is just fine by me. This man is a man of God. He knew that God had brought certain people to heaven before. And he wanted to see God and heaven to. God appeared to him, but he was too scared to turn around in his bed, to see him. So God gave him a second chance, by taking jesse to heaven. On the dvd, he explains and describes everything he saw. I believe it, cause I know it is true. This man would not lie. HE was just in Ontario, and a lot of my family saw him. HE was preaching at a church there. he is truly annointed, and christians believe by faith, not by sight.
ladon, my are we angry here? I wonder why you are so sensitive to this subject, if you do not even beleive in it. I am not catholic, catholics believe in praying to saints and mary. catholics don't beleive in praying directly to God. Catholics don't study and read the bible for themselves. Don't compare me to catholics, because I am not one.
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside [This message was edited by yellowfairy on 02-08-05 at 06:03 PM.] Posts: 237 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-08-05 06:02 PM
Well, you learned the secrets of the quote button. Now to start typing.
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
yellowfairy Member posted 02-08-05 06:04 PM
hey, I was just seeing if it came out, how I wanted it to. I knew how to use it before. Wink
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: 237 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-08-05 06:18 PM
I believe in Peter Pan. I have seen him.
You might think Im crazy, but i dont care. Panians believe by faith, not by sight.
The difference? I know he's real!
What if I said Id been to heaven, and released a dvd about it? Would you believe me? I said it, so it must be true.
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-08-05 06:21 PM
And you really should care...youre not going to save dear Ladon (im sure he's desperate to be saved, the poor dear) if you come across as a bumbling, ignorant fool.
Apathy is not thy friend.
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
yellowfairy Member posted 02-08-05 06:34 PM
I said I don't care about people not believing me. Jesus went through what all christians go through. He actually got frustrated and angry with the wordly men who did not believe in him and that he was the messaiah. I am not trying to save anyone, here. And I don't think I am a bumbling, ignorant fool either. It doesn't really matter how you come across, to someone, if they are in the presence of God. Apathy is not my friend, yes you are most certainley right. maybe one day, when you are ill of mocking those around you, you will feel empty and non-fulfilled. Peter-pan will not be there to comfort you will he?
NO i wouldn't believe you. why would I? I don't even know who you are. and you are not christian or a man of God, or born-again. Therefore, I would not believe anything you said about God in the first place. Do you believe it when a vegetarian says that a chicken nugget will give you cancer?
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: 237 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-08-05 06:51 PM
Firstly, if a chicken nugget did give you cancer, it could be irrefutably proven by someone else, as it is a physical medical science. The vegetarian would just be passing on knowledge.
Its funny that you presume me to be an unsaved heathen, when, quite ironically, Im a pentacostal methodist who is part of the multimedia team in my local church. Added to that, Ive been baptised.
So ha!
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
yellowfairy Member posted 02-08-05 07:34 PM
when did I say you were a heathen? And I was just trying to make a point, with a stupid circumstance, just as you were with peter pan.
So ha! ? what is this all about? is this a game to you? well, I am sorry that you think this way. good for you if you have a faith and believe in it, and have been baptised. You won't see me trying to condemn you for it. And you won't see me spewing lies and assumptions about it either. I respect your faith. I think that is the major difference between you and I.
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: 237 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-08-05 07:50 PM
You respect my faith? My bloody faith is your faith.
To assume that I dont respect faiths is, like I said, an assumption. And a bad one at that. I am merely questioning what you take for granted.
You do not bother to question it, remaining blind to faith.
Speaking of which, you dont really seem to be that respectful of my 'faith'... as evidenced by
quote: you are not christian or a man of God, or born-again. Therefore, I would not believe anything you said about God in the first place
Ouch babe. Real ouch.
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
yellowfairy Member posted 02-09-05 03:42 PM
I am blind to faith? faith is believing without seeing, without having concrete proof. And everything I have said in this "debate" are all my beliefs according to...yes that's right beacon, FAITH. I don't question it becaue I feel it. can you see the wind? no, but you can see the effects of the wind. I have not seen God with my human eyes but does that mean that he doesn't exist? no. I feel the effects of God through his presence. Your faith is not my faith, if you disagreed with everything I said. Hello, can you say, taking out of context? You asked me if I would believe something you said about heaven or god, and I answered according to your earlier statments, the only knowledge I had about your beliefs, which definitely did not coincide with mine. It has nothing to do with lack of respect sweetie.
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: 237 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 02-09-05 07:18 PM
quote: faith is believing without seeing
Is this same thing as 2+2=4? I can't natural see natural numbers anywhere. I can think of it but not see it. So the internal consistency natural number set theory has, is kind of like believing in god?
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2259 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-09-05 10:22 PM
Nor can you see the serd of 63. But you can write it down on paper, to the 10th decimal place.
Hey! It wont let me modify my own post! Thats a shame, a double post makes me look so amateur (thats, of course, to say that I have done this several times, much to the displeasure of other 'proffesionals')
Firstly, you cannot see my imaginary friend Maximillion.
But you can see the effects of him: He makes me smile, makes me laugh, makes me the person I am.
Maximillion exists.
And secondly: (Time for some wit)...the christians think Im atheist. The atheists think Im christian...which just goes to show (wait for the wit...aaah!) that atheists are always right LOL ah Im funny....
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
inky_fingers Member posted 02-10-05 08:16 PM
YellowFairy, I wanted to comment on the topic of those guys who have gone to heaven and all. First, while I am glad at your passion and ferver with this issue, I do not think that is the right way to go about it. For one, you cannot trust everything you hear. I am not meaning to be rude or flat down say you are not right- for of course I could be wrong. However, the Bible also reminds us to be careful of such things, for they might not be true, even if we deem that they are, or if they seem legitimate and Biblical.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Take heed that no man deceive you.'" Matthew 24:4
"Also of your ownselves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20:30
Are you trusting this guy just because he said he went to heaven? The devil himself masquerades as an "angel of light", do not forget. I am capable of saying a lot of things I do not mean or that are false. But just because I say them of course does not prove their validity, obviously.
Who was that again, and the title of the DVD?
_____________________________ a drop of ink may make a million think. -lord byron Posts: 97 | From: Washington, USA | Registered: 11-16-04
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-10-05 08:29 PM
quote:Posted by yellowfairy:
I feel the effects of God through his presence
I didnt do biology in highschool, but there is a section of the brain that is most active when people worship.
Its all chemicals, dear.
~~ ~~ Take a sad song, and make it better. ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
>>>>PLEASE DO NOT -- YET -- REPLY TO THIS THREAD LEST YOU SCREW UP THE CORRECT CHRONOLOGY. (And, yes, I'm getting bleary-eyed doing the html code stuff , though rereading this thread's interchanges makes it worthwhile. Another 2-3 installments and I'll be done. Thanks again for your patience.)<<<<<
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
quote:yellowfairy wrote: I said I don't care about people not believing me.
"Me thinks thou dost protest too much."
quote:Jesus went through what all christians go through. He actually got frustrated and angry with the wordly [sic] men who did not believe in him and that he was the messaiah [sic].
One reason Yeshua is special (that is the topic, yes?) is he actually got frustrated and angry with adamant, bull-headed, angry, unloving, "I'm right, you're wrong and going to hell, sucker" religiously devout zealots.
Yeshua showed amazing grace and love towards prodigals, whores, political assassins, "worldly" secularists, and doubters. The anti-God crowd. They actually enjoyed his company ... found him winsome, enigmatic, and kind. How many non-theists find biblical theists in the 21st century of similar bent?
One of my favorite quotes about Yeshua's sui generis character:
The world, in its more quiet and candid moods, when it is not controversial, knows quite well by now that the character and personality of Jesus are the ultimate standard. However uncertain about God we may be, Christian and non-Christian alike, deep in our hearts, if we put it in plain language, we have a feeling that if God really is like Jesus Christ, things are all right. In blunter language, what we really mean is this, that if God will mould himself on the example of Jesus, then we can trust him. That means that, for everyone who is dissatisfied with the justice of the world, there is eventually one court of appeal, the tribunal of Jesus Christ, that we live in a world where Jesus is the last word.
The early Christians, and not they alone, went further. They were convinced that Jesus has the last word -- a proposition not so different as it seems at first sight, if we concede that personality survives death. What is remarkable, is that Jesus would appear to have shared this belief, or something very like it, and this without being absurd or insane. In any case it is strange enough. For picture the carpenter's shop; a customer drops in and orders a plough to be made or a yoke, and the carpenter agrees to make it. Next day you can see him busy with it, bending over his bench, wiping the sweat from his face. You see him on the Galilaean [sic] road, dusty and dirty with long travel. You see him sitting by the roadside with a crowd of his friends, as they hand him bread and he passes them the salt. You see him drop off to sleep in a boat with sheer fatigue; and at last you see him hanged on a cross. And then, within one generation, they say the world is going to be judged by that crucified carpenter. It is incredible; and yet mankind at its soberest and quietest has age by age said that it cannot think of anybody else. That is one aspect of Jesus in the experience of men. ~ T.R. Glover, British professor of Classical Greek, Jesus in the Experience of Men, 1921, pp. 30-31. (my emph)
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Posts: 1149 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
Beacon-of-Hope Member posted 02-13-05 06:44 AM
Take that, Evangelism!
A joyous day! A joyous day!
~~ ~~ Desert Rose - Dreamed I saw a Desert Rose - Dressed Tall in Ribbons and Bows... ~~ ~~ Posts: 244 | From: Brisbane | Registered: 01-10-05
Agentk120 Member posted 02-13-05 01:24 PM
Airedale, you kick a**!
"When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader." -Plato(Reminds me of Bush) Posts: 79 | From: The Windy Apple | Registered: 02-12-04
yellowfairy Member posted 02-14-05 03:50 PM
inky_fingers, believe me, I know exactly what you are talking about, I beleive I wrote down a scripture, earlier that stated to be aware of worldy knowledege, and men's thinking. I also know that the bible says to be aware of false prophets, and that even the very elect will be deceived. With all this knowledge, I still beleive that men and women have been transported, in the spirit, to hell as well as heaven. I believe one of the womans' names is mary K. Baxter, and she has written several novels pertaining to the spirit world. I would recommend that you read, A Divine Revelation of Hell, If you wish to weigh these things for yourself. The man is named Jessie Duplantis, pretty much every born-agains have heard of him, he is a preacher and evangelist. He has a show on tbn, on monday nights. The dvd is called Close Encounters of the God kind. And I truly recommend it. Thankyou for your concern inky_fingers.
Yes, Airdale, you are correct. mary magdalene, one of the first people that jesus, revealed himself to after his ressurection, was a prostitute before Jesus saved her. I said he became frustrated and angry with the men who would not believe that he was the son of God. I have the scripture written down, but not with me. Jesus, can't believe that the men don't beleieve him, they want physical proof, but jesus is trying to say that he is the proof. I didn't say he lashes out at them, and smotes them with one flare of his nostril, did I? you are rebutting me with a quote from a man ? You want to comment on Jesus's character and you pull out a book written by a professor? that is nice and all, but why don't you look up his character in the bible, what does it say there?
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: ?? | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 02-14-05 07:16 PM
quote: You want to comment on Jesus's character and you pull out a book written by a professor? that is nice and all, but why don't you look up his character in the bible, what does it say there?
There was something about piety, but I guess you gloss over that part don't you? Further, if one were to universalize Jesus' teachings, then we are all not, as Paul would say, "In God's Grace." But then again, Paul wasn't Jesus or God. In fact, nor was any other person who wrote the bible. All of them were men. So, quoting the bible is quoting men. Or are you one of those "the bible is unquestionably true" people? How am I able to verify that your belief about the unquestionability of the bible is sound? Isn't it more that you define the bible is certain, not that it contains an external property of certainty. And the bible is nothing short of complete inconsistencies and contradictions.
For instance, justice in the bible, is manifested in two ways: one, "Eye for an Eye" retributive justice in the Old Testament. Two, ascetic altruism of Jesus' teachings. Two completely incompatible/contradictory moral theories. But I suppose your apologist mind is going to say that "our earthly analysis is irrelevant to the the majestic certainty of Yhwh's word." Like a broken record. If the bible were the key to measure consistency and certainty, then perhaps the world really is flat and the universe revolves around the earth.
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2283 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
Airedale Senior Member posted 02-15-05 09:48 AM
quote:worldly knowledge ... false prophets ... the very elect ... hell ... heaven ... born-agains ... Jesus saved her ... son of God ...
These words represent a specialized vocabulary that has little meaning or significance outside the speaker's restricted religious background. It's akin to an English prof walking up to his son's high school coach and saying, "Listen, that pronoun reference you used a minute ago? It was too vague. Drop the split infinitives and dangling modifiers too." My prescription? Spend time listening to some pagan music, rubbing shoulders with non-theists, and taking an anti-christian philosophy course. To quote Martin Luther, "Sin boldly!" Wink
quote: I believe one of the womans' names is mary K. Baxter, and she has written several novels pertaining to the spirit world. I would recommend that you read, A Divine Revelation of Hell, If you wish to weigh these things for yourself.... < snip >
you are rebutting me with a quote from a man ? You want to comment on Jesus's character and you pull out a book written by a professor? that is nice and all, but why don't you look up his character in the bible, what does it say there?
Let's see... don't rebut a QLer with a "book written by a [Greek classicist] professor" whose grasp of the NT's ancient Greek manuscripts would be exceptional, but do read novels a QLer recommends?
quote:mary magdalene, one of the first people that jesus, revealed himself to after his ressurection, was a prostitute before Jesus saved her.
Why do you assume The Magdalene was a prostitute? I mention this as an example of how easy it is for us all to import our unexamined assumptions to Scripture.
quote:I said he became frustrated and angry with the men who would not believe that he was the son of God. I have the scripture written down, but not with me. Jesus, can't believe that the men don't beleieve him, they want physical proof, but jesus is trying to say that he is the proof. I didn't say he lashes out at them, and smotes them with one flare of his nostril, did I?
Besides his two Temple cleansings with a whip, he verbally "smote" them:
The religious Ph.D.s who were most confident they had a special "in" with God assumed they understood Scripture better than their less educated/less religious contemporaries. Two examples of Yeshua's warnings to them (and by application to overly confident 21st C. fundamentalists):
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that [Final] day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' ~ Matthew 7:21-23, NIV
Repeating someone's name twice was an expression of intimacy. Those religious critics of his wrongly presumed they were rightly connected to Heaven. Irony.
You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment -- the absolute basics! -- you carelessly take it or leave it....
Snakes! Reptilian sneaks! Do you think you can worm your way out of this? Never have to pay the piper? It's on account of people like you that I send prophets and wise guides and scholars generation after generation -- and generation after generation you treat them like dirt, greeting them with lynch mobs, hounding them with abuse. ~ Matthew 23, delivered the last week before Yeshua died; excerpts from The Message paraphrase, my emph.
Note how the "reward" for a true prophet of God is he is most often murdered by..........
r e l i g i o u s
f u n d a m e n t a l i s t s .
Irony again. It's certainly not a vocation those who value their lives should aspire to.
Yeshua was special b/c he perceived irony where most didn't.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Posts: 1150 | From: Aslan's Narnia | Registered: 11-10-00
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 02-15-05 10:28 AM
Wow, eloquent and salient post Airedale. Even if YellowFairy denounces it as heresy, I still found it to be an excellent read.
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2283 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
quote: Do any of you believe that Heaven or Hell exist?
It's called Earth. But seriously, I do. I believe in almost all of the beliefs of Catholicism, but I just hate the Catholic Church so much. I just don't like their stance against gays, involvement in politics,firm resistance of evolution, and sexual harrassment scandals. Too much evil in something good. Like ice cream covered in dirt.
"When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader." -Plato(Reminds me of Bush) Posts: 104 | From: The Windy Apple | Registered: 02-12-04
Ladon Quotation Fanatic
posted 02-16-05 12:29 AM
Yahoo news article. {unfortunately, hyperlink not saved. ~Aire}
He may go to prison but if he has faith, then god will forgive him, right?
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2283 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
Agentk120 Member posted 02-16-05 04:20 PM
I never said I believed in all of the beliefs of the catholic church.
"When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader." -Plato(Reminds me of Bush) Posts: 104 | From: The Windy Apple | Registered: 02-12-04
EmeraldEyes Facilitator posted 02-16-05 05:52 PM
quote:Originally posted by Agentk120:
I believe in almost all of the beliefs of Catholicism, but I just hate the Catholic Church so much. I just don't like their stance against gays, involvement in politics,firm resistance of evolution, and sexual harrassment scandals. Too much evil in something good. Like ice cream covered in dirt.
To break the cycle of religious persecution and blind prejudice, we have to define our disgust in a less general way than saying "I just hate the Catholic church". That's a sentiment of the same ignorance as a statement like "I hate black people.... or homosexuals..... or Jews".
What you really hate is the notion that a segment of society is 'evil', based on a name. You hate the notion that God has a political colour, rendering all other colours 'of Satan' by default. What you hate is that a person could represent themselves in one way, calling it truth...... and live a lie in the corners of their own heart. (As a pediphile priest does.)
You have to know who the real enemy is. If you don't there's the very real danger that in your war against evil..... you become its mouthpiece.
"Aeterna Non Caduca" Posts: 1138 | From: Brisbane, Australia | Registered: 07-26-02
Ladon Quotation Fanatic posted 02-16-05 06:26 PM
Eloquent response EE. I would agree with your analysis of Agents post but I would disagree with you on perhaps an important point. However, it is still a point, that is whether or not evil exists. Of course by your judeo-christian background you would most certainly forward the idea that evil exists, but can you show me this evil? Argue for its existence external to your your religious faith?
ACLU Execution Watch *Jesus is not a Republican or a member of the NRA* Posts: 2283 | From: CA | Registered: 09-13-01
EmeraldEyes Facilitator posted 02-16-05 11:02 PM
quote::Originally posted by Ladon:
Eloquent response EE. I would agree with your analysis of Agents post but I would disagree with you on perhaps an important point. However, it is still a point, that is whether or not evil exists. Of course by your judeo-christian background you would most certainly forward the idea that evil exists, but can you show me this evil? Argue for its existence external to your your religious faith?
We're all products of some conditioned philosphy, but I shall try to meet the challenge you've set, as generically as possible.
To come to some consensus on how we’d define ‘evil’ and ‘good’, we’d have to first accept a common ‘goal of existence’.
I would suggest that the ultimate and last goal of existing, is to mate, with the purpose or recreating. The quest for continued life on earth. All other activities of living things are in service of that single purpose.
The mind of living things is programmed to make choices to that end. At their basic level these choices would not qualify as ‘good’ or ‘evil’ I agree. They would simply mean ‘living’ or ‘death…… ‘safety’ over ‘danger’……… or ‘joy’ over ‘pain’. Every choice is judged on the immediate reaction to danger. In the world of animals you couldn’t call a predator ‘evil’ or a sacrificing nurturing mother ‘good’. It’s all just the processes of life….. que sera sera.
However, where does this fine theory come apart at the seams?
Answer~ In the fact of ‘extinction’. For all it’s dedicated pursuit of survival, the choices preprogrammed into the living organism are eventually a dismal failure. Every living species in the course of time has come to extinction, proving that theory a fallacy. A ‘lie’.
Human beings are the exception. There is a specific point in time. An abrupt moment in history, where a new philosophy was adopted. This new philosophy of ‘good and evil’ is in direct contradiction of evolution theory at this point. From my understanding, evolution theory claims that human intelligence evolved to a point where it’s choices were just more sophisticated in what is ultimately still the choice between existence and extinction.
Good and evil theory however, means that the preprogrammed data in the human creature, was challenged as being ‘a lie’ in its hypothesis that IT was the key to continuing existence.
Tribes began to demonise this lie and ritually respect it’s existence and to honour the new found ‘truth’ that ‘good’ was the key to eternal existence. This was an abrupt contradiction of the philosophy of existence to that point in history. Not an ‘evolution’ of intelligence at all.
Proof of this new philosphy began to evolve in civilization, and concepts completely alien to previous life, suddenly appeared. Matrydom, humility, compassion, forgiveness began to distinguish human beings as separate and ‘moral’. Human beings, who are still programmed biologically to be drawn towards eternal existence, then had a new choice in achieving that end…… and that is to reject the part of our blueprint that claims it is something that it is not. It’s a proven lie. It is 'evil'.
The new philosphy was ritualized in ceremonies that affirmed the existence of these two forces, but the evolution of ‘good and evil’ philosophy, was inevitably to produce a human sacrifice, once, ……. To be ritualized and remembered for all time.
A man came along who believed so firmly that this lie of biology should be defined and rejected, that he defied it by giving up his own life so that others may forever be certain of ‘truth’, simply by ritual communion with Him in His death.
According to my interpretation of things, this is proof of why ‘good and evil’ theory is the only ‘Truth’….. and it is also why Jesus was so important…….. in keeping with the original thread topic. Razz
"Aeterna Non Caduca" Posts: 1138 | From: Brisbane, Australia | Registered: 07-26-02
lheartherbert Member posted 02-19-05 12:19 AM
Jesus is only important to people who actually believe there is a god and he is god's son. I depise anything and everything that has to do with (christian)god and jesus is not important to me at all. He's supposedly so special because he died for our sins which no one has any proof of anyhow except the bible and how do we know when that was written and if it's even true? sorry i'm letting my views on religion take over this post. It just makes me sick. Probably every body who believes in god is out there reading this and praying for my soul....don't waste your time.
Posts: 159 | From: number 17 cherry tree lane | Registered: 12-23-04
yellowfairy Member posted 02-23-05 04:00 PM
Yes, I believe that everything God says in the bible to be true. There are many opinions in it though, and many advice coming from man, and not God. But these men were God's followers, and were wise in the ways of the Lord, so I don't take what they say too lightly, Ladon.
They are very often called contradictions, but there are no contradictions, when it comes to God's word and message. the Eye for an Eye analogy, was stated by abraham, this was his belief. God restates it and says, this is wrong, that he would rather us not seek revenge. He says if your enemy slaps you on the face, turn your other cheek so they may slap you again. He was talking about humility, and loving your enemies.
Airdale, my words may mean nothing to you, and be of the smallest signifigance also. But God is not insignificant to me, nor will he ever be. You are not a born-again, so how can you try to refute what we believe, if you cannot comprehend it? oh, I truly sin all the time Airedale. But I have forgiveness [Wink]
when I mentioned the book, I was only using it as my evidence. The professor was not a christian, therefore, it was like a vegan giving advice on meat, it is rather useless.
mary magdalene was a prostitute, God cast the demons out of her. The sexual peversion of demons. What else could they have been from? I am not a fundamentalist Airedale. But I am overly confident in my belief in God. In mathew, he is talking about the scribes and pharises who have God in their heads, but not in their hearts. They had worldly knowledge of jesus, but they missed it by about 18 inches. God wanted a realtionship with their hearts, not their minds. He calls them snakes and vipers, and hypocrites, for thining they knew so much, yet knew very little. God says when he comes back, he better find you hot or cold, but if you are luke warm, like the above pharises and scribes, he will vomit you from his mouth.
yes, Airedale, it is kind of ironic, and tragic also. God did want to point out this irony, and he did. It is better stated as a major misconception. A wrong belief. Jesus was special for a whole lot more, than pointing this out to those who did not understand. He explained all of this to all his prophets and followers.
Ladon, yes if the man in the article, asks for forgiveness from God and his heart truly belongs to God, then God will forgive him. Although he wasn't right with God in the first place, if he was molesting children, it is never too late to get right with God. Never.
walked away, heard them say poisoned hearts will never change walked away again. turned away, in disgrace felt the chill upon my face growing cold within.--A fire Inside Posts: 247 | From: sunny california | Registered: 02-19-04
igotseatacfunk Member posted 02-24-05 02:19 AM
quote: I truly sin all the time Airedale. But I have forgiveness
and she doesn't why? because she's not "born-again" You seem to be placing yourself and other "born-Agains" on a pedestal higher than the mere average person... The arrogance in the way you defend and explain your beliefs is unchristian in itself. So you're only reading what i like to call "somewhat God's word"
quote: I believe that everything God says in the bible to be true.
that's funny because God didn't say anything in it, Man did. It was man who put their interpretation of what God "said" assuming that god has a voice to speak with. So since God has no form It obviously didn't write anything in the Bible either... Sure it was man who wrote it under the supposed Dictation of a God of somesort. Not to mention that the Bible as you know it was not translated directly into English from it's origanal version, if i'm not mistaken it took six translations before it got to English... I beleive it went from Aramic, to Hebrew, To Greek, to Latin, To German ,and then English... So undoubtably Words and phrase have been taken out of context since no two languages translate directly into another with out a little bit of the meaning scewwed.
Imagination is more important than knowledge ~Albert Einstein Posts: 61 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
>>>>PLEASE DO NOT -- YET -- REPLY TO THIS THREAD LEST YOU SCREW UP THE CORRECT CHRONOLOGY. <<<<<
[This message was edited by Jwpublius on 05-07-06 at 10:15 AM.]
Note the argument jumps from Jan. '06 (above installment) to the last 10 replies or so below, dated April '06.
Author: igotseatacfunk posted 04-20-06 03:51 PM
quote:Maybe he's so special for becoming the greatest figure in history. What do you say debaters?
I say boo to that.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. ~Albert Einstein Posts: Posts: 98 | From: Seatac, Wa, United States | Registered: 08-14-04
Author: Phix posted 04-20-06 04:27 PM
Do you people want the answer or do you just want to argue and debate? Jesus was not God. He was both the son of God, as you and I are and, the SUN of God, meaning a shining example of God's will. No one will understand the Bible unless they are aware of the underlying principle. It is simple but you must condition your mind to recignize the simplicity of it. Forget scripture _ man's interpretation of God's will _ an read REALITY _ God's law and intention _ itself. Any Questions?
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein Posts: 283 | Registered: 07-16-05
Author: klmsc posted 04-21-06 10:50 PM
As has been referred to in early posts, Jesus is the only "founder" of a religion who resurrected from the dead.
"Dr. Simon Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ....But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable and that the resurrection did in fact happen." ( myfortress.org website.. no author listed ) The entirety of Dr. Greenleaf's conclusions are at the link.
That website has tons of links and citations from people much more learned than I for external and internal verifications of the resurrection.
Ultimately, though, having the reality of Jesus' deity proven still leaves each of us with a choice. I have a friend that understands all the physics, math and dynamics that make airplanes fly, but refuses to fly in a plane. Knowledge and understanding aren't enough.
We are told that "One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."
I choose to worship Him now.
"That which doesn't grow dies." Posts: 7 | From: SC, USA | Registered: 04-18-06
Author: Agentk120 posted 04-22-06 02:35 AM
Bush went to a very good college. Does that make him smarter too?
"Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same, to conquer was his big goal, So he built his great empire and slaughtered his own kind, Then he died a confused man, killed himself with his own mind.": "Were Only Gonna Die For Our Arrogance"-Bad Religion
Posts: 504 | From: The Windy Apple | Registered: 02-12-04
Author: Twister posted 04-22-06 02:56 AM
quote:The entirety of Dr. Greenleaf's conclusions are at the link.
Conclusions aren't reasons. I graduated in the top 50 students in Australia, I have an IQ over 160, I top at least one of my classes at university every semester... the story of Jesus is completely false. Proof! You accept authoritative proofs - accept that one.
The ontologial reference of some object is relative to the metalanguage it is translated into. Posts: 1695 | From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia (I conformed!) | Registered: 10-08-02
Author: klmsc posted 04-22-06 10:03 AM
quote::Originally posted by Twister: The entirety of Dr. Greenleaf's conclusions are at the link.
Conclusions aren't reasons. I graduated in the top 50 students in Australia, I have an IQ over 160, I top at least one of my classes at university every semester... the story of Jesus is completely false. Proof! You accept authoritative proofs - accept that one. _The ontologial reference of some object is relative to the metalanguage it is translated into._
I apologize for not copying and pasting the extensive quotes and argument made by Dr. Greenleaf. I provided the link to his legal argument for proof of the veracity of the Gopsels and therefore the resurrection of Jesus. For ease for those who don't wish to read the argument here is the summation:
By legal standards for the authenticity and accuracy of historical documents the four Gospels are authentic and accurate.
quote:These copies of the Holy Scriptures having thus been in familiar use in the churches, from the time when the text was committed to writing; having been watched with vigilance by so many sects, opposed to each other in doctrine, yet all appealing to these Scriptures for the correctness of their faith; and having in all ages, down to this day, been respected as the authoritative source of all ecclesiastical power and government, and submitted to, and acted under in regard to so many claims of right, on the one hand, and so many obligations of duty, on the other; it is quite erroneous to suppose that the Christian is bound to offer any further proof of their genuineness or authenticity. It is for the objector to show them spurious; for on him, by the plainest rules of law, lies the burden of proof.
By legal standards the four authors of the Gospels have been established and they are credible witnesses.Greenleaf lays out the historical evidence for the identities of the four writers of the Gospels and their credentials. He sums up these descriptions this way:
quote: It is time that this injustice should cease; that the testimony of the evangelists should be admitted to be true, until it can be disproved by those who would impugn it; that the silence of one sacred writer on any point, should no more detract from his own veracity or that of the other historians, than the like circumstance is permitted to do among profane writers; and that the Four Evangelists should be admitted in corroboration of each other, as readily as Josephus and Tacitus, or Polybius and Livy.
By legal standards the testimony of the four Gospels is true.
quote:In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether is it possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.
quote: The credit due to the testimony of witnesses depends upon, firstly, their honesty; secondly, their ability; thirdly, their number and the consistency of their testimony; fourthly, the conformity of their testimony with experience; and fifthly, the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances.
Greenleaf then goes on to examine these five indicators and show by legal standards that the authors of the Gospels fulfill them.
The above legal standards having been fulfilled, the Gospels should be accepted as true.
quote:The narratives of the sacred writers, both Jewish and Christian, abound in examples of this kind of evidence, the value of which is hardly capable of being properly estimated. It does not, as has been already remarked, amount to mathematical demonstration; nor is this degree of proof justly demandable in any question of moral conduct. In all human transactions, the highest degree of assurance to which we can arrive, short of the evidence of our own senses, is that of probability. The most that can be asserted is, that the narrative is more likely to be true than false; and it may be in the highest degree more likely, but still be short of absolute mathematical certainty. Yet this very probability may be so great as to satisfy the mind of the most cautious, and enforce the assent of the most reluctant and unbelieving. If it is such as usually satisfies reasonable men, in matters of ordinary transaction, it is all which the greatest sceptic has a right to require; for it is by such evidence alone that our rights are determined, in the civil tribunals; and on no other evidence do they proceed, even in capital cases....IF such evidence will justify the taking away of human life or liberty, in the one case, surely it ought to be deemed sufficient to determine our faith in the other.
Further external corroboration on minute details point to the authenticity of the Gospels.
quote: "Had the evangelists been false historians," says Dr. Chalmers, "they would not have committed themselves upon so many particulars. They would not have furnished the vigilant inquirers of that period with such an effectual instrument for bringing them into discredit with the people; nor foolishly supplied, in every page of their narrative, so many materials for a cross-examination, which would infallibly have disgraced them. Now, we of this age can institute the same cross-examination. We can compare the evangelical writers with contemporary authors, and verify a number of circumstances in the history, and government, and peculiar economy of the Jewish people. We therefore have it in our power to institute a cross-examination upon the writers of the New Testament; and the freedom and frequency of their allusions to these circumstances supply us with ample materials for it. The fact, that they are borne out in their minute and incidental allusions by the testimony of other historians, gives a strong weight of what has been called circumstantial evidence in their favor. As a specimen of the argument, let us confine our observations to the history of our Saviour's trial, and execution, and burial. They brought him to Pontius Pilate> We know both from Tacitus and Josephus, that he was at that time governor of Judea.
A sentence from him was necessary before they could proceed to the execution of Jesus; and we know that the power of life and death was usually vested in the Roman governor. Our Saviour was treated with derision; and this we know to have been a customary practice at that time, previous to the execution of criminals, and during the time of it. Pilate scourged Jesus before he gave him up to be crucified. We know from ancient authors, that this was a very usual practice among Romans. The accounts of an execution generally run in this form: he was stripped, whipped, and beheaded or executed. According to the evangelists, his accusation was written on the top of the cross; and we learn from Suetonius and others, that the crime of the person ot be executed was affixed to the instrument of his punishment. According to the evangelists, this accusation was written in three different languages; and we know from Josephus that it was quite common in Jerusalem to have all public advertisements written in this manner. According to the evangelists, Jesus had to bear his cross; and we know from other sources of information, that this was the constant practice of those times. According to the evangelists, the body of Jesus was given up to be buried at the request of friends. We know that, unless the criminal was infamous, this was the law or the custom with all Roman governors."
Greenleaf concludes with this summation:
quote: His business is that of a lawyer examining the testimony of witnesses by the rules of his profession, in order to ascertain whether, if they had thus testified on oath, in a court of justice, they would be entitled to credit and whether their narratives, as we now have them, would be received as ancient documents, coming from the proper custody. If so, then it is believed that every honest and impartial man will act consistently with that result, by receiving their testimony in all the extent of its import.
So, there is one "reason" why Jesus is worshipped: (The part of departure for this debate.) By legal standards for evidence and testimony the Gospels stand as true and Jesus' resurrection and bodily ascension into heaven are established as fact. Jesus is worshipped because He rose from the dead, never to die again.
That which doesn't grow dies. Posts: 9 | From: SC, USA | Registered: 04-18-06
Author: Ladon posted 04-22-06 12:36 PM
Need two definitions from you: what constitutes "legal" and what do you mean be fact?
Greenleaf writes "standards for human tribunals" specifically in courts in the United States of America, but also refers to Great Britain's laws when discussing legal standards of proof and evidence.
Here is his explanation for the level of proof his arguments meet and therefore establish the resurrection as "fact":
quote:By competent evidence, is meant such as the nature of the thing to be proved requires; and by satisfactory evidence, is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount of this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test to which they can be subjected is, their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and concretion, and so to convince him, that he would of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. If, therefore, the subject is a problem in mathematics, its truth is to be shown by the certainty of demonstrative evidence. But if it is a question of fact in human affairs, nothing more than moral evidence can be required, for this is the best evidence which, from the nature of the case, is attainable. Now as the facts, stated in Scripture History, are not of the former kind, but are cognizable by the senses, they may be said to be proved when they are established by that kind and degree of evidence which, as we have just observed, would, in the affairs of human life, satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man. When we have this degree of evidence, it is unreasonable to require more. A juror would violate his oath, if he should refuse to acquit or condemn a person charged with an offense, where this measure of proof was adduced.
I am not seeking to dodge, I just am not more eloquent than Dr. Greenleaf.
The orginal question is "Why Jesus is special?" my response is that it has been proven by commonly accepted evidentiary standards for a USA court of law that the resurrection and bodily ascension of Jesus occurred. By the testimony of the Gospels, the evidentiary credibility of which Greenleaf established, there are other indications of Jesus' uniqueness. I just chose the two "biggies."
That which doesn't grow dies. Posts: 10 | From: SC, USA | Registered: 04-18-06
Author: Skeg posted 04-26-06 08:06 AM
quote:The orginal question is "Why Jesus is special?" my response is that it has been proven by commonly accepted evidentiary standards for a USA court of law that the resurrection and bodily ascension of Jesus occurred.
First of all, I would like to commend you, klmsc, for keeping exactly to the debate topic after 12 pages. It's often quite difficult after so many views and opinions.
Your conclusion, however, I can't ever commend. Never have I seen a Christian (Who's religion is one based on faith) try and use the American court of law as a proof that the gospels word is true. I can't put my finger on it, but there seems to be a glaring irony somewhere in your argument.
Using your theory of what can be considered proof, you wouldn't contradict yourself, would you? What I mean to say is, would you declare the system (The American court of law) has a 100% success rate? If your answer is no, then where's the proof? After all, you can't have a fallible proof, because then it becomes an assumption, or worse, a theory! When it becomes a theory, you're back at square one, no?
Posts: 987 | From: England | Registered: 04-13-02
Author: klmsc posted 04-27-06 06:30 PM
quote::Originally posted by Skeg: Never have I seen a Christian (Who's religion is one based on faith) try and use the American court of law as a _proof_ that the gospels word is true. I can't put my finger on it, but there seems to be a glaring irony somewhere in your argument.
Whether one accepts the Bible as accurate and true is independent of whether one has a religious or "faith" relationship with it.
I raised the issue of the legal proof of the historical validity and accuracy of the bible's account of Jesus' life, death and resurrection because the question was "Why is Jesus so special?"
If we have no accepted record of who he was and what he did, then the only things special about him, objectively, are the things people have said and done in his name or in opposition to it.
Jesus was a historical figure. There are many things about his life that were special, if one accepts the Gospels as historically accurate. For me the resurrection is the biggest one.
I was only trying to anticipate the cries of "foul" that it never really happened. "What's your source?" "Ha! The bible doesn't count!"
Ultimately, as Dr. Greenleaf argues, the 100% certainty is a higher standard than we require for most of what we accept as true or accurate.
As a Christian I do have faith, but it isn't faith in whether the historical resurrection occurred or not, it is faith that Jesus' death paid for my sins so I could have a relationship with a holy God. That is a reality beyond what we can see, touch, or taste. It is an "evidence of things unseen."
If Jesus hasn't risen from the dead, then I don't have the facts on which I base my faith.
quote: Using your theory of what can be considered proof, you wouldn't contradict yourself, would you? What I mean to say is, would you declare the system (The American court of law) has a 100% success rate? If your answer is no, then where's the proof? After all, you can't have a fallible proof, because then it becomes an assumption, or worse, a theory!
As an aside, there is very little outside of that which is immediately tangible that can be "proven" in the sense of 100% absolute certainty. Does this mean that there is no truth? I don't believe so. There is a great deal of post-modernist thought that would disagree with me as well as some of the eastern religious sects.
When one asserts that something is "valid" one has to appeal to some standard that is generally accepted or at least understood. Chauvanist that I am, I turned to the courts of the United States of America. If I have offended, I assure you it wasn't intentional. -klm
That which doesn't grow dies. Posts: 12 | From: SC, USA | Registered: 04-18-06
Ready? Set.......... GO!! "Let the Games Continue"....
And to borrow a quote from the Fav Quotes Forum:
Genuine polemics approach a book [or debate] as lovingly as a cannibal spices a baby. ~~ Walter Benjamin (German Theologian, Writer and Essayist. 1892-1940)
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
[This message was edited by Airedale on 05-08-06 at 09:13 AM.]
Wow, is there a lot here or what. I don't have time to read all of it but I think I got the majority of the argument. First, I make an assumption. The bible is fact. There are aproximately 22,000 manuscripts that support this fact and they all corroborate each other. Second, and this address an argument I read higher up Jesus does call himself Ywh. For reference "I am" = "Yeweh".
quote: 4Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?" 5"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground. 7Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth." 8"I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go." 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."
This is not the first time Jesus uses the "I am" phrase but it is the first time we see the reaction of the religious members of the community. They heard the name "I am" and worshiped him. Third, the New Testement was written by those who had either met Jesus personally or personally knew those who did know Jesus (Luke is an example of the latter). Paul, personally knew Jesus as Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Acts). Luke knew Paul along with all the other apostles. The last book included in the official bible is Revelations written by John (or Jon) before his death in the late 1st century. Fourth, I agree with Chuck Colson, no one who knows they're defending a lie will defend it to death. If the apostles knew Jesus was a lie they would have admited it at the end, they never did. I know there will be questions based on this post. I'm not an expert on Christianity or the Bible, I have been a Christian since I was a child (about 20 years now) so I have some knowledge from that. One more point, there is only one bible, many translations but one bible, that bible does not include the extra books that the Catholic church includes. Also, you cannot believe part of the bible, it's either all true or not true at all. That's it thank you for your time.
"I have a dream," he said slowly. "I persist in dreaming it, although it has often seemed to me that it could never come true. I dream of a home with a hearth-fire in it, a cat and dog, the footsteps of friends -- and YOU!" -Glibert Blythe (Lucy M. Montgomery) to Anne
Posts: 71 | Location: Vancouver, WA | Registered: 08-03-04
Yeah, I have to agree with Mr. Sharpe. I have read a lot of the posts to get different views of the topic and I would have to say the original post seemed a little vague and uninformed on the deeper picture. Yes, we are all children of God, but we are not all born of virgin mother's which makes us a little less special than Jesus. Also, I don't know many people that turn water into wine, heal the lame, sick and blind. Caused the dead to rise again and feed thousands with three loaves of bread and two fish. If you were to die to save the human race and physical world, no you would not be worshipped you would be praised and we all would be thankful, but you would not be worshipped. Another HUGEEEEEEE factor that I believe sets us aside and makes "Jesus so special" is that he did not sin, he did not lust, he did not lie, or cheat or steal. We all do. If we were to die there would be something we have done or thought of doing to deserve death, but Jesus did nothing to deserve to die, except say that he is the son of God. The whole Jesus is God and God is Jesus thing is really a hard concept to grasp, so try to take that in carefully, it will hurt your head=)
Posts: 206 | Location: Houston, TX USA | Registered: 05-11-06
To anybody who believes that Christ performed miracles and redeemed our souls, it's utterly silly to ask what makes him "so special." That much should be obvious.
But to answer the question for the sake of a non-believer, without asking you to embrace the notion of Christ being divine (as I do), there are still several things which set him apart.
1. Christ introduced the veneration of humility to Western Civilization. Before Christ began his ministry and said all that stuff about the meek inheriting the Earth, humility was not seen by the culture of that time as a virtue. Go back and read the tales of Gilgamesh, or other cultural indicators from BCE. You might find tales of pride causing problems, but you won't see it identified as a vice.
In the east, such concepts are a part of Buddhism. Some skeptics think that Jesus must have studied in the East during those "lost years" to have picked up on this ideal.
2. Unlike many would-be liberators of the Jews, Christ chose not to lead an armed rebellion, even though many at the time believed he could have pulled it off. In the long run, this led to a complete transformation of the Empire he was expected to fight off, and Christianity became its official state religion.
I'm sure I could bring up a few others, but there's a couple of talking points to start with, I suppose.
I agree, and have been curious about the second part of number 1 because I have heard some things about that too.
Where there schools in East for the Jewish children to study at? I didn't think there where, and I don't think Jesus left during his "lost years" to study yoga. It was the norm for all Jewish boys to go to school to study Torah. The best would go on to study and the rest would do a family trade, then the boys would study some more, the best of the best would go on, then the boys would study some more and the best of the best of the best were chosen to study under a Rabbi. Then, if worthy, they would begin their own ministry around the age of 30. It seems to make more since that the "lost years" would be spent going to school everyday memorizing the whole Old Testament. Call me crazy, but that seems pretty special in it's self. Rabbis in general are very special and intelligent, not that I have met them but I have seen the kind of curriculum required to become one.
Posts: 206 | Location: Houston, TX USA | Registered: 05-11-06
So he learned the whole old testament off by heart (there is no evidence to support this, but I'll go with it...)...which was a common thing for rabbi's to go about and do.
So...you say Rabbis are special. Fair game.
Assume there are 100 Rabbis in the world. Jesus is one of them.
All rabbis are special.
Therefore Jesus is special.
Divide by 100.
Yah. Pretty special.
...you annoint my head with oil, my cup runneth over...
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
Well, yes all Rabbis are special, but not all Rabbis perform miracles, and if you don't believe in the miracles preformed, then Jesus, even if he was just "another Rabbi", he is the only Rabbi that, I know of,is globally known and whose ministry has been strong for some thousand and so years, . I would say, he is an extra special dude
Posts: 206 | Location: Houston, TX USA | Registered: 05-11-06
quote:even if he was just "another Rabbi", he is the only Rabbi that, I know of,is globally known and whose ministry has been strong for some thousand and so years, . I would say, he is an extra special dude
And I suppose coke is special because it's so well known? No, it's because it has a great advertising campaign and it appeases our shallow desires. I don't know if you've ever noticed, but the popular choice is generally about as terrific as lung cancer.
Psalm5:5...I thought God doesn't hate anyone (Job 36:5).
The scriptures that Jesus was reading were not the same ones we have. Translations are so sociocentric that we have to consider Jesus' influence on our post-Jerome version. For example, the Judaic interpretations of Psalm 5:5 are less specific, talking of evil in general and not of arrogance. It's only because of the Christian notion of humility that our interpretations are in agreeance. It's nice and circular, isn't it?
The ontologial reference of some object is relative to the metalanguage it is translated into.
quote: This time. The Apokalypse ("Revelation"), written ca. 90 AD by John, one of Jesus' closest disciples, means "the unveiling." Unveiling of what? end times? Not quite. The unveiling of the slain Lamb as the Lion of Judah when he returns to earth again, after a one-world anti-Israel government is established. John was so blown away by the warrior-otherliness...
All I read is severe hypocritical pride...I see christians dreaming of standing on a pedastal and laughing as they see Jesus 'the peace-man' destroy all those who do not believe.
Why should I believe in a God like that, for he truly cannot be an infinite being, one who loves us all. God must be mortal, and God must have died a very long time ago.
...Nastiest Member on QL...
Posts: 3774 | Location: Disputed Zone | Registered: 01-10-05
Well I read your opening message. You said that Jesus died for everyone and there have been other people to die for others, but the other people that have died for them have not saved there sins and given them the chance of eternal life. Assumption NO Fact Yes
Posts: 1 | Location: westland, nebraska, us | Registered: 10-02-06
Your original question is what makes Jesus so special. While you bring up a nice point in saying other people have died for some, but you failed to mention the fact that those people were not miracles themselves as was Jesus. Born from a virgin, living a sinless life, able to turn water into wine, feed 5,000 men with barely enough food to feed two men, and then dying and coming back to life. You have to look at his entire life to understand Jesus, not just the over emphasized cross scene. I suggest you not only read and memorize the bible, but also comprehend.
Posts: 2 | Location: Vina, AL, US | Registered: 10-21-06
quote:Your original question is what makes Jesus so special. While you bring up a nice point in saying other people have died for some, but you failed to mention the fact that those people were not miracles themselves as was Jesus. Born from a virgin, living a sinless life, able to turn water into wine, feed 5,000 men with barely enough food to feed two men, and then dying and coming back to life. You have to look at his entire life to understand Jesus, not just the over emphasized cross scene. I suggest you not only read and memorize the bible, but also comprehend.
Or you could walk around. Look at the trees. Smile. Feel good. Feel bad. Deal with the fact that you do not know much at all about the meaning of your existence, and ignore the frantic, lonely attempts of Scientology and Christianity to invent an ideal universal dictator, and try to be a decent person. Who was J.B.S Haldane? There's a question for you. Was Buddah more, or less special than Jesus? What about Merlin? King Arthur? He's pretty special, and may have existed just like Jesus. King Arthur was involved, directly and indirectly, in many miracles.
Whether or not Jesus is special pretty much boils down to whether you want to flounder in "stale intellectual ascent" (which is very good for the spirit(which we might regard as quite a part of the mind)), or the occult.
Posts: 5633 | Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand) | Registered: 09-22-02
, though rereading this thread's interchanges makes it worthwhile. Another 2-3 installments and I'll be done. Thanks again for your patience.)<<<<<
Well I read your opening message. You said that Jesus died for everyone and there have been other people to die for others, but the other people that have died for them have not saved there sins and given them the chance of eternal life. Assumption NO Fact Yes
