First things first - the definition I am working with for both:
\Op"ti*mism\, n. [L. optimus the best; akin to optio choice: cf. F. optimisme. See {Option}.] 1. (Metaph.) The opinion or doctrine that everything in nature, being the work of God, is ordered for the best, or that the ordering of things in the universe is such as to produce the highest good.
\Pes"si*mism\, n. [L. pessimus worst, superl. of pejor worse: cf. F. pessimisme. Cf. {Impair}.] 1. (Metaph.) The opinion or doctrine that everything in nature is ordered for or tends to the worst, or that the world is wholly evil; -- opposed to {optimism}.
I align my view on most things with pessimism. I do not have faith in humanity, and I believe that if left to its natural order, society and the world would go to Hell in a handbasket. I disagree with all the feel-good crud crammed down our throats that the right things will take their course and things will work themselves out. Most of all, I don't think my pessimism is a bad thing.
My dismal view of natural order is why I strive harder to make positive changes in my environment and the world. The right things won't happen because they're the right things; they happen because people work their tail off to make them happen. Dumb luck doesn't count. When pessimism is a driving factor as such, it is good.
I also believe that optimism can lead to complacency. When people firmly believe that the natural order is for good to prevail, they might exclude the factor of effort--namely, their effort. When this sort of attitude allows bad things to happen, optimism is bad.
----------------------------- Pobody's Nerfect.
Posts: 98 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 02-12-02
pessimism 1. A tendency to stress the negative or unfavorable or to take the gloomiest possible view. 2. The doctrine or belief that this is the worst of all possible worlds and that all things ultimately tend toward evil. 3. The doctrine or belief that the evil in the world outweighs the good.
optimism 1. A tendency to expect the best possible outcome or dwell on the most hopeful aspects of a situation. 2. Philosophy. The doctrine, asserted by Leibnitz, that this world is the best of all possible worlds. 3. The belief that the universe is improving and that good will ultimately triumph over evil.
where does it say that it won't take work for good to "triumph over evil"? if you take the other point of view you are stuck with the idea that everything will turn out bad no matter what you do. so what's the point? at least with optimism you will make sacrifices, work hard, because you believe that good will come out of it.
those who are optimistic do not commit suicide, try to make a difference in this world, get married and have loving trusting relationships.
those who are pessimistic have trust issues and don't last long in relationships, bomb a test because they already know they're going to do horrible, never help others in need because they are too busy thinking about themselves and their own problems.
Here are a few thoughts on these two subjects from some optimistic thinkers: An optimist is a person who sees a green light everywhere, while a pessimist sees only the red stoplight... The truly wise person is colorblind. --Albert Schweitzer
Don't ever become a pessimist, Ira; a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun--and neither can stop the march of events. Robert A. Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"
The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true.
A pessimist is someone who has had to listen to too many optimists
Posts: 2071 | Location: Washington D.C. | Registered: 11-28-99
I believe the definition of pessimisum to be - a negative attituide or always seeing the negative effects and dwelling on them before seeing anything posotive. While I believe the definition of optimisum is the exact opposite. haveing a postitive attitude about life and everything around it.
Today there are so few optimists that when one of them is being themselves. everyone else around asks if they are on drugs or if they laced their food or something. For example I am an optimistic person I am always happy and at work I show it. Every day I get called weird and called a crack head. Can't you just be High on life? Is it so wrong or "weird"
one of my favorite quotes is this. "There is no such thing as a weird human being. Some simply require more understanding than others." I have now gone somewhat off subject but the point is there the same.
Aumay
Posts: 23 | Location: Phoenix, Az USA | Registered: 03-31-04
First off... an inherent dislike and/or lack of faith in humaninty is simply not a healthy stance to take. Just because you dont feel well or are in a bad mood does not give you the right to be an asshole to everyone else(not that you are "you" is just a general term here).
Some pure optimists are the most blissfully ignorant people I've ever met. (Mainly overly religious types with the 'the world is beautiful, love, kindness, and cookie baking' routine) They come off like happy and loving god-fearing people but are really ignorant to the every-day street wise mentality most Americans experience today. Aside from the fact that at the end of mass they are flipping each other off in the parking lot after shaking their hands in church.
Pure pessimists ive noticed (like my father) always have the anti-response to everything. Maybe not necessarily because they look upon everything as if there were no hope, they just focus on the possible problems and downfalls with their decisions to keep themselves from making bad ones.
Myself, Im not sure Im either an optimist or a pessimist. I figure there are things you just can't control and don't have any say over so there is no reason to cause personal stress about it. Hell, it dosent even matter who you vote for in the presidential election. They are not the ones making decisions anyhow. It makes me laugh at all these people who criticize Bush for what he's doing. Go to google and type in "Trilateral Commission" or "Bildeberger" or "Masons" these are the people running the country (well the whole world actually).
Whoa... got off topic. Sorry
Posts: 218 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA | Registered: 04-19-04
quote: Some pure optimists are the most blissfully ignorant people
This brings on a new problem if you will That there are different kinds of optimists and different kinds of pessimists. I also would like to say that Nobody is fully pessimistic or optimistic there is always a little of one when you have the other. A lot of people are balanced between the two.
Aumay
Posts: 23 | Location: Phoenix, Az USA | Registered: 03-31-04
Rayne, my argument is against the belief that pessimism is an absolute bad, and optimism is an absolute good. Disproof requires a counterexample, which I provided in accordance with the definitions in the first part of my post. I agree that the other flavors of pessimism you defined lead to bad things, but those are irrelevant to my counterexample. I believe pessimism in natural order can lead people (myself included) to action, while optimism in natural order can lead people to complacency. Hence why pessimism is not always bad, and why optimism is not always good.
quote:So is it possible, Szech, that your pessimism brings out the optimism in you? So in fact, your thinking of one leads to the action of another?
Probably. I subscribe to the pessimism I defined, though I'm obviously optimistic that my actions will have impact.
quote:Don't ever become a pessimist, Ira; a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun--and neither can stop the march of events. Robert A. Heinlein, "Time Enough For Love"
I'm going to have to think about the others, but this quote perfectly circumscribes the attitude I despise about optimism. The idea that we are simply an audience, doomed to watch the events of our lives with nothing more than our anticipation of what will happen next.
----------------------------- Pobody's Nerfect.
Posts: 98 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 02-12-02
what a funny debate. You are looking for the good in pessimism. The irony is: That is an example of optimism. maybe what we're looking at is not "optimism" itself, but ignorance. ignorance is not knowing, whereas optimism is knowing full well and trying to make the best of it.
though i do agree that pessimism could help with street smarts. I've found myself too trusting in the past. since then i've been the victim of theft, etc. it's sad, but true that we can not trust everyone. I suppose that we do need a tiny bit of pessimism in the mix, but the optimism should outweigh.
Hey everyone. (I'm a new member). This is just my humble opinion here, but I think a little bit of both is necessary to survive in this world. A bit of pessimism will keep you on edge, ready for whatever comes your way. But without optimism, you're gonna get overwhelmed. You need SOME hope. As for the religion aspect of this whole thing; I'm a Christian, but I don't beleive that entitles me to, say, go running around in the street, all the while saying "God's gonna take care of me, and not let me get hit by that 5 ton 18-wheeler coming down the street!" That's just idiocy. God loves me, but he doesn't tell me "Hey, just go right ahead and jump off that bridge...I'll catch you!" That's dumb. lol. OK, that's all I have to say!
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. And if the second time you don't succeed...just give up. You suck." - iron_scimitars
The Concepts of ambiguity and paradox is definatly at play here. And the Idea that Optimisum and Pessimisum are on the opposite sides of the Yin Yang is defiantly another factor. You can't have one without the other. and agian its all about balance.
Aumay
Posts: 23 | Location: Phoenix, Az USA | Registered: 03-31-04
