People living for themselves and themselves alone will have a pretty miserable existance whether they're depressed or not. In fact, it probably would drive you to suicide. Humans are social creatures. There is an innate need within each of us for human contact. To say you shouldn't care about those people around you suggests a very narrow perspective.
Maybe there's a reason why so many people are saying the answer isn't suicide pills but help. Medical/counselling/parental support whatever, help is the answer. From reading the posts it seems like I'm not the only one who has had personal experience of this dilemma. The fact that all those who have also been through this are as against it as I am speaks for itself.
Try and read our arguements with an open mind. There is a message here that we are trying to tell you.

Jessie1684-I know it's hard to believe but it can and does get better. Sometimes it feels like the getting there is tougher than the low points but don't give up. Suicide is never the answer no matter how tempting.

Excellent post, Jessie.

You wrote >>>However, not all suicidal people are irrational, I am not irrational, just realistic. Come on people, if you really hate life or yourself that much, you should seek help, but when help fails, go ahead and take the stupid pill!! <<<

Absolutely, this myth that anyone who wants to die is "ill" or completely "irrational" just perplexes me. Cerintaly, there are manic depressants, bi-polars, or temporarily depressed people out there who are "ill" enough to let their feelings cloud their judgement But there are also people who have rationally concluded that suicide is a logical option. Wanting to die is not always an illness!

You also wrote >>>I am a "suicidal bitch"<<<

Cynical women are the best

You wrote >>>You start a debate and yet you provide no concrete support for your debate.You only support is "I think it should be so and thats the final answer."<<<<

That is absolutely ridiculous. My evidence is simply the theory of FREE WILL. That is the backbone of my entire argument. My opinion is that people should be allowed to kill themselves on the premisce of FREE WILL. Poeple should have the right to kill themselves and I think they deserve an easier way out. I dont think its the governments job to protect people from themselves. Do you?

Besides, if you want to debate about the flaws of my posts... I can give you my opinion on yours. The only "evidence" in your posts appear to be a collection of sob stories... You talked about how sad it is to tell kids why their family member killed themselves. How hard it is to clean up blood. How sad it is too see grown man cry over his son's death, ect.

Boo hoo.

If by citing evidence you mean to include sob stories, no thanks. I'll refrain.

You also wrote >>>Suicide is a selfish act and if you think different then apparently you were never born of a mother and father. <<<

No kidding its selfish. Once again, who cares? We dont live for eachotehr, we live for ourselves! We put ourselves first and foremost. Who are you to FORCE someone to live just because others will be sad? Its THEIR life not yours, Gemini.

You wrote >>>People living for themselves and themselves alone will have a pretty miserable existance whether they're depressed or not. <<<

People always live for themselves. Im the complete opposite of you. I say that living for others is miserable. If your happiness revolves around being a "social creature" and "living for others", I would regard you as helplessly dependent.

I do not think there is anything that can ever happen to a person that would cause them enough pain to justify the taking of their own life (obviously I'm not counting terminal illness etc.)

If your girlfriend dumps you, if everyone in your family dies in a plane crash, if the Red Sox win the World Series (ok, maybe that last one, 'cuz if they do the End is near) none of these can possibly compare to the casual suffing out of your own life by any means.

Nobody is good to anybody dead. Nothing will be solved by suicide. If you live in constant emotional pain you don't deal with it by spending your entire life curled up in a corner. Go out, and enjoy the life you're lucky enough to have. There are millions worldwide who would kill to have the chances that we take for granted, so go out and forget your pain.

As long as we are social creatures we will hurt each other, but we will also experiance pleasure through our contact with others.

(PS: I apologize for the total lack of intellectualism in that post, but to me the concept of suicide doesn't mesh with logic because the suicidal are often beyond it)

"I demand to be minty!" -Happy Noodle Boy

You wrote >>>I do not think there is anything that can ever happen to a person that would cause them enough pain to justify the taking of their own life<<<

Good, then we are assured that you will never take your own life. Whew.

But who are you to make that decision for others... ?

Who are you to decide what is valuable in another person's life...?

Who are you to tell them they shouldnt kill themself...?

Who cares what YOU want them to do... Let them make up their own mind.

I think people should be able to kill themselves via a happy little pill if they so desire instead of letting YOU make that decision for them.

Beldin says you MUST live!

Pavlov, I respect your opinions and agree with you on some of you points, but you need to calm down, this is not a bashing session. Part of the beauty of the forum style of these debates is that people can edit out overactive emotions and write out logical / substansiated responses. Don't let the debate turn into a personal argument, I let myself have one of those with The Tableist, and it was just a bunch of useless slings at the end.
I'm afraid I would also have to suggest that shouting FREEDOM! FREEDOM, FREEEEDOM!!!!! from the hilltops is not an effective argument, you DO need to back up your opinions. Yes we all understandFree Will is your reasoning, but WHY?

+++Seth_X+++

~~~ "If you feed a man
a
fish, you feed him for a
day. If you teach a man
to
fish, you feed him for
life." ( Japanese
Proverb )

Let me clear this up if I can. You suggested that I should "calm down" and "not attack" others. But I feel as though Im wrongfully charged.

For example, Losing my cool would look like this - "JESUS I CANT TAKE OH MY GOD JUST SHUT UP I HATE YOU" *Notice how I wrote in all caps and babbled incoherently... those are the signs of losing one's temper.

I havent done that, have I?

And personally attacking someone would look like this - "SHUT UP YOU MORON GOD YOUR SO STUPID JUST DIE" *Notice how I resorted to name calling and once again, wrote in all caps... signs of personal attacks.

I havent done that either, have I?

Clearly, Im innocent of all charges...

You wrote >>>Pavlov, I respect your opinions and agree with you on some of you points, but you need to calm down, this is not a bashing session. <<<

And I respect yours. Youve posted some brilliant things on this website in my not so humble opinion. But I must ask... Who was I bashing? I admit that I make strong, blunt statements and direct them towards people. But its not as though Im resorting to name calling or losing my cool. Simply pointing out inaduequacies in other people's arguments is hardly bashing in my opinion. If I see what I believe is slanted logic, then of course Im going to lash out against it. That's the nature of debate.

I think that maybe you are intepretting my "blunt" way of writing as being "angry" or "mean spirited." My apologies for coming off as a jerk (and I do come off as a jerk sometimes), but its my writing style. It wont change.

You also wrote >>> Yes we all understandFree Will is your reasoning, but WHY? <<<

Why? Because I loathe government control over unalienable human rights... such as the ultimate right that we should be the rulers of our body, not the government. I dont like when the government imposes laws "for our own good." Laws such as wearing seatbelts, wearing helmets, anti suicide, and anti drug abuse are laws that I attest. These laws were all created on the basis of self protectionism... that is, they are created to protect us, from ourselves! Do you see the irony here? It makes no sense.

Could you imagine being arrested because you were "bad" to yourself? If thats going to be the case, lets arrest poeple who have poor diets. Lets arrest people who watch too much television. Lets arrest internet junkies (me). Let criminalize anything that could potentially hurt us. Self protectionism just doesnt add up, and this is why I think laws against suicide are ridiculous.

The original argument was over the potential of a suicide pill. I think that's wrong, because, as stated before, it could easily get into the hands of people who would use it for murder or into the hands of a depressed person who would take the easy way out.

Pavlov, you seem to be arguing for the right to kill yourself, after much soul searching and reasoning, simply on the matter of free will. You disregard the emotional trauma you might subject anyone else to, and have come to the conclusion that there is no way you might, in any future time, find anything in this world that is worth living for. I feel sorry for you. However, it is your body, and your right. Suicide is only illegal if you don't get to the other side. They can't prosecute a corpse. So, why wait for a pill. If someone is so determined to kill themselves, we don't have to make it easier, by making suicide less painless or messy. The pain and mess are great deterents to those who are only flirting with the thoughts. If you're already married to the idea of suicide, there are already several options available to you.

Just remember, there are options available to the people who love you and care for you, to try and make it as difficult as possible for you to go through with it. And yes, working from your self-centered world view, it is their right to try to save you, in order to save THEM the heartache that will come after. So, you see, the argument goes both ways. If you can kill yourself without any care about the emotions of the people you left behind, they can stop you, without any care of your emotions as well.

As Lady Macbeth said:
Do not stand upon the
order of your leaving,
just get the heck out of
here! (thanks RBG)

Well, I have to say that this debate is really attracting quite a crowd. As for Pavlov's comment, "wanting to die is not always an illness," I agree with all my heart. Wanting to die is a decision, a personal decision. I have often thought about all of those who I would be leaving behind, which brings me to Beldin, who said, "nobody is good to anybody dead." Well, for those of us who aren't good to anybody while alive, what difference does it make? I personally, serve no purpose on the entire planet except to deplete the environment of oxygen. So, Yes, there are people who have illnesses, those are the people who need help. However, I am just extremely realistic, some people would refer to it as extremely hopeless. I guess the point that I am trying to make is that suicide may be a selfish act, but so is life. We all live trying to please others, well, isn't it equally selfish to force somebody to live because that is what they want? Anyway, selfishness is inevitable, regardless of which side you take. What it all boils down to is, you're selfish if you kill yourself, but you're selfish if you force someone to stay alive for someone else's benefit too.
-Jess
"Be yourself...because people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind" -Dr. Seuss

You wrote >>> Pavlov, you seem to be arguing for the right to kill yourself, after much soul searching and reasoning, simply on the matter of free will. You disregard the emotional trauma you might subject anyone else to, and have come to the conclusion that there is no way you might, in any future time, find anything in this world that is worth living for. I feel sorry for you. <<<

You think that I want to commit suicide???

Haha... the last thing I want to die is commit suicide! The only thing Im in favor of is letting people have the right to end their lives in a peaceful manner.

I dont know where you got the impression that Im suicidal. Christ almighty man. Just because Im a proponet of legalizing suicide doesnt make me suicidal myself.

You also wrote >>>The original argument was over the potential of a suicide pill. I think that's wrong, because, as stated before, it could easily get into the hands of people who would use it for murder or into the hands of a depressed person who would take the easy way out.<<<

We already discussed this earlier in the debate. These pills wouldnt be distributed like condoms. They would only get into the hands of those wanting to die. Many safety measures would be taken.

Finally, you wrote this "And yes, working from your self-centered world view, it is their right to try to save you, in order to save THEM the heartache that will come after. So, you see, the argument goes both ways. If you can kill yourself without any care about the emotions of the people you left behind, they can stop you, without any care of your emotions as well.<<<

Excellent point. Ive been waiting for someone to bring this up. The family/friends of a person who wants to die has every right to TRY to help them. And if the person who wants to die is younger than 18, bring them to a psychologist, toss them in a crazy house, have them put under the Baker Act. Do whatever you can! Although, ultimately the decision will be made by the individual who wants to die. And if a consenting adult feels like they do not wish to live (after help has failed) they should be able to kill themselves.

You wrote >>>Anyway, selfishness is inevitable, regardless of which side you take. What it all boils down to is, you're selfish if you kill yourself, but you're selfish if you force someone to stay alive for someone else's benefit too.<<<

Absolutely. Everyone acts with their own self interest in mind. Its human nature. A person who wants to die is putting their own wants before those who care about him or her. The family they leave behind will be very upset. And inversely, the family/friends who are making someone stay alive are doing it with their own self interest in mind too. They are no different that the person committing suicide.

The term "selfish" has really gotten a negative connotation somehow. EVERYONE is selfish. Thats how the world works, thats how poeple work, thats how capitalism works, thats how things get done... self interest!

The arguement for these suicide pills seems to be if you want to die, you should be able to do so in a painless and calm manner. Hmmm... you also said that the pill should be like the lethal injections adminstered to prisoners sentanced to death. What a dignified way to die. In such a state of extreme relaxation that you lose control of your bowels. Yes, that's the way to make an exit.

Sorry, but if we're getting down to the bare bones of the arguement there are already ways to kill yourself that are painless. Dignified? No. Suicide is not a dignifed way to die. Gas yourself. OD on pills washed down with vodka. I had a friend who did that. His girlfriend dumped him so he took a whole heap of painkiller, drank a quart or vodka and just for good measure slashed himself up and struck himself from a tree. Nothing like overkill eh?

So painless ways to kill yourself already exist. The main thrust of your arguement therefore seems to be if a person wants to die let them. Okay, fine. I smoke. I know that this will probably kill me in the future. Does this mean I want to die? No. I live in hope that the doctors will find a cure for cancer. Or that I'll be one of the luckly ones and live a long life. But I still smoke. Does this mean that if I fall ill with a life threathing illness I should be allowed to die and not receive treatment, just because I knowingly did something that would kill me? I would hope not. So how is someone who is upset but can be helped different?

As for the whole, I'm not doing any good while alive so why shouldn't I kill myself arguement. This world is strange. You might have a conversation with some person you never met at a party. Unbeknowst to you this person is a research scientist and something you said to them makes them view a problem in a different light and bingo! they've discovered a cure for AIDS. You didn't discover the cure. You probably have no idea about how cruical your role was in this process, but if you weren't there it may never have happened. Who knows how our actions might affect the course of fate? How do you know that you haven't made some vital difference to someones life?

*personal note here. Try not to throw people's accounts of their own experiences of suicide in their faces. It's a little bit callous as it's a hard enough topic to deal with anyway.*

diggieman,
Okay, you have provided a good argument; however, I am a bit confused about something. You seem to be in favor of "dignified" death, but you said (in regards to smoking) "Does this mean that if I fall ill with a life-threatening illness I should be allowed to die and not receive treatment, I [should] hope not." Well, I hope that you never are in this situation, and smoking is a bad habit, but it is unfortunate that this habit could be "punishable" by death. Anyway back to your quote, I believe that, yes, you should be ALLOWED to die, if that is what you choose. However, I would strongly oppose the refusal of treatment. Your words just confused me a little, you seem to have had some bad experiences in the field, and I am sorry and I agree that they shouldn't be thrown back into the person's face, but as for the right to die, if others have the right to live without intervention, why should those who choose to die be treated any different? I didn't mean to offend anyone in this debate at all, but it seems that everyone is a little confused on their position of where they actually stand on the subject.

"Be yourself...because people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind" -Dr. Seuss

Jess, that little personal note was not directed at you. I'm sorry if you took it that way. What I am saying is, you could say that my smoking is a (prolonged sure) type of suicide. And that as no-one witholds treatment from smokers who have been killing themselves, why should we withold treatment from those who would take a suicide pill?

I have sonsidered suicide once or twice in the past, but it was always fleeting. When I recovered from whatever it was that got me down I looked back and realized how screwed up my thought patterns were.

Clearly I've never suffered anything so horrible as to make suicide a legitimate consideration, but I do know what it's like to be depressed.

What I meant by saying that there's no real reason to commit suicide is this: we live lives 1000x better than people in other countries. We have freedom (Pavlov, don't bother using that against me, I can see it coming) there isn't mass-starvation, no massive AIDs epidemic, no extreme poverty. We have the chance to live lives that thousands wish they had.

So why throw it away? What do you accomplish by cutting yourself open, blowing your head off, or ODing on pills? If you exist with the mindset that you are no good to anybody, and will never be and therefore shouldn't try then you will never realize all that the world has to offer.

"I demand to be minty!" -Happy Noodle Boy

Pavlov - I apologize - please change the "you" in my statements to a generic "sane suicidal person." The arguements remain the same. I believe (without going back through every one of your posts) that you used the word "I" in describing your positions. If you were using the first person only to describe your thoughts about other's rights, then I misunderstood. You stated your case so forceful that I mistook your reasonings as personal.

Jess: to say: "I personally, serve no purpose on the entire planet except to deplete the environment of oxygen." is completely wrong, and you know it! Diggieman gave one view, let me give you an opinion that's closer to home. Your affect on people you know. Not their sadness if you were gone, but the joy you bring by being alive. The sense of good, of worth, that others have by loving you. Do you think, on this site alone, you would receive so many responses to your posts, or have been named to the panel that's being discussed on the suggestion board site, or have received the special arrangements David made for you, if you had no worth whatsoever. I know we're not supposed to have personal messages, so I'm going to make this next statement to EVERYONE who may be considering suicide. GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR A**HOLES! Life sucks sometimes - for everyone. That doesn't mean that there's no future, it means that the future can't be worse than the present! If you can't see any good that you bring to the world, look again. EVERYONE has some redeeming value, even if they're too blind to see it. Sadness is not an excuse.

(Rhon has left the soapbox.)

As Lady Macbeth said:
Do not stand upon the
order of your leaving,
just get the heck out of
here! (thanks RBG)

The reply Rhon posted may be the most intelligent one I seen so far in this debate. Personal opinions aside, when and if the government would decide that a person has the right to die a more dignified death just by having the right to obtain a pill, will most likely never come to pass in this lifetime. Hell look at the laws already on the books, abortion, suicide, smoking, driving, same sex marriages, ect. it all comes down to the point that they decide that what is legal and what is not. Having the option to obtain a pill to make things simple and less messy is just the starting point to an endless list of reasons we want freedoms. I only pray that there would be such a legnthy process involved before a person coould actualy obtain this pill, that if they reach that point by then they would be over the pain that drove them to seek it in the first place. Time does heal ...maybe not as fast as we would like, but it does have the power to ease the pain we feel the greatest.

"Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic"

Rhon,
Although it seems you have left the debate, I just wanted to compliment you on your argument. I personally believe that there are suicidal people who can be helped. However, after help fails, go ahead and decide for yourself how you are going to live or cease to live your life. I hope that very few people ever reach the point of having to make this decision, but if they do, we all have to let go sometime. I don't know many other viewpoints on religion, I have been doubting my own recently, but I believe that God will not let you die if he is not ready for you to go. Even if a person attempts suicide, God will not let that attempt be successful if that person was to remain alive. I don't mean to offend you or anybody else concerning my postition in this debate, but I guess I just felt the need to "share".

Gemini,
"time does heal," exactly. I believe this, as do I believe that time will heal the pain of mourning for a lost loved one. If a person who was close to you was killed in some type of accident, would you end your existence just because that person wasn't there? I hope not. So, if a person chooses to take their own life, that just means that you have to trust time, love yourself, and hope that you will never fall to that decision yourself.

Much love to all, thanks for listening,
-Jess

"Be yourself...because people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind" -Dr. Seuss

Jessie, your belief that God won't let you die until he wants you to smacks of Calvinism (predestination etc.) The viewpoint held by most churches is that God lets you do whatever you want, and you pay for it afterward.

I myself am an atheist, so my reasons against suicide are purely logical (at least, I think so). I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, but I do believe the in the repercussions an act of suicide will have on those still here. Nobody has said clearly or plainly just what the point of suicide is. I know that it's a way to escape the pain in your life, but do you really think all the torment you live in now can compare with all the joy you could have?

"I demand to be minty!" -Happy Noodle Boy