Luckily for me, no soul searching was necessary. Soul searching is corny. I just read up a little more on depression. The effects of depression and so forth.

For the most part, people who want to die are depressed and therefore, are irrational. They are unable to decide if they want to die. The factors that cause a person to want to die, that we sometimes consider logical, are a result of the depression. One may feel hopeless, guilty, or mentally anguished and think that these feelings are totally a result of a situation. That is to say, that those feelings are totally reflective of the situation they are in and that feelings of hopelessness or guilt are warranted. This is rarely the case. Hopelessness and guilt are direct results of depression.

Thus, those people should be helped, not influenced to take a pill and waste their life. Besides, Im of the (maybe false) opinion that people who suffer from depression, or at one time suffered from depression are generally better, nicer people. Suffering seems to widen your range of experience and allows to see things more objectively, the good and the bad alike. So I say no to suicide pills. Why would I want less nice people on the face of the earth?

I am in agreement of the effects of depression, but to those who have done some really awful things, and maybe haven't been legally convicted, a suicide pill may be the way out for them. I don't think that they should have the luxury of a painless death if they had done something to cause others a great deal of pain, but if they want to take a pill to end their lives instead of hurting others, innocent others, then I say, "Give them the pill and say good-bye."
As for those who haven't committed any crime, but still want to die, I don't think that pill should be made readily available for them. I think such a pill should only be available if the depressed person has undergone more than one type of treatment and is making no progress whatsoever. Yeah, we could commit every suicidal person, watch them 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but why add more torment to the torment they give themselves. I don't feel that a person could or should be given a suicide pill if attempts to "save" the person were not made. If attempts fail, and the person wants to let go, who has the right to make them hold onto nothing?
In my opinion, I think a suicide pill should be made available to those who have a 0% success rate of recovery. I don't think that suicide is an answer that should be used in most cases, but there are some where it could apply. Keep in mind that if a person commits suicide, they don't know that the situation would have gotten better, they gave into the uncertainty, but they still got what they wanted, an escape from the pain that was making them miserable.

Just my opinion,
-Jess

"Me too, me too!!!" -came from some kind of weird conversation with a friend!!!

There shouldnt be a suicide pill on the market. Because I for one, would have used it. I was going through alot of depression, and im jsut getting over it. I have attepted several times, and now that I look back im glad that I failed. I dont have to preach. I just know first hand it would not be a good thing.

Selena

Be who you are,
and nothing else.

Your post is quite worrisome to me. As an emergency physician, I intuit you are either in serious jeopardy or a gifted fiction writer. Assuming the worst, I bid you call the suicide hot line available in every town/city and hold this debate with a person one-on-one over the phone or face-to-face, even better.
Depression (other than the reactive type--i.e. your dog gets run over and you anguish over it for a while) is a biochemical deficiency in one's brain. Actually, all mood is biochemical. But genetically predisposed persons have a deficency of seritonin and/or dopamine and perhaps other neurotransmitters. Many new medications available are extremely efficient in restoring normalcy to these chemical imbalances in the brain, thus restore appropriate emotional balance. Bottom line: as simple as taking one pill every day, you can rid your morbid ideation and focus on self injury and suicide. Isn't something so simple as swallowing a pill a day worth trying if it will restore normalcy to your mood, restore your joys and your appreciation of the marvels of life and end your sense of low self-worth and hopelessness? If you had pneumopnia evinced by fever, cough, shortness of breath, pain, severe weakness would you consider suicide to rid the symptoms? Or would you see the worth in using antibiotic medication to quickly eliminate all these undesirable symptoms and restore your physical vitality? Medication is readily available that will restore your emotional and psychological vitality. Trust me. Call your Doctor, visit any hospital emergency room, or call the suicide hotline now.
Effective help is not only available, it's easy to get. Many people have been where you are now and used medication to move past it. Patty Duke's story will give you insight. When you get past this hell, you too can help others as Patty Dukes does so effectively. To your long life, I wish you good luck.

Well, yes, you may be an emergency physician and have probably had to treat a few suicide "victims" and "save" them from themselves. And, yes, there are effective treatments for those with clinical depression, but these pills also have some not-so-nice side effects. In my opinion, speaking as a person who would be a strong supporter of a suicide pill, as well as a person who is currently on an antidepressant, that these pills sometimes make it harder to make it through one more day. Swallowing the little pill may be extremely easy, I have no problem doing that, but the nausea, having to force yourself to eat even when you don't think you can keep it down just to prevent death by malnutrition(which I don't really want to prevent) and being kept awake all night by an unrelenting migraine triggered by these wonderful little pills, is not exactly something to want to live for. In fact, they make the suicide pill that causes death more appealing. As for suicide hotlines, they do record conversations, which could be used to take an unwanted action...involuntary committment, more people finding out, etc. Also, death becomes more appealing. You have a point, a valid one, there is help...but with this help, as with most things: it gets worse before it gets better, to those who can't take anything else, that worse could cause the better to never come. I admire your willingness to provide help to those who need it, in your profession you do have the medical authority to offer these "solutions." However, this is not a 100% successful plan. In fact, it's hard to determine what is worse: the depression; not wanting to live because of a chemical imbalance, or the "cure"; being too physically and mentally sick to even think wanting to live. Alas, I don't think there is much getting through to some...thanks for sharing, although I strongly disagree.

-Jessie1684

Just look at how many people in here care about you! Why would people write this much to someone they dont know...if they didnt care? Every life is important, and everyone is here for a reason. You have to give things a chance. So many people care about you, and you really are special. And another thing...why would you write that in here...if you didnt want help? You need to find help. There are so many people in the world that care...

"Why would you write that in here if you didn't want help?" Pavlov's Dog is not crying out for help like some of you seem to believe. He is merely stating his very valid opinions.
This whole issue should not even be an issue. People should ultimately have control over their lives and bodies. If John Doe's life is not worth living, then for God's sake let him end it.
As for the 'selfish' defense, that is so false. Every single thing happens for a reason, and that includes death. You can't be angry with someone for taking their own life, just like you can't be angry with them for being killed in an accident. It was their time to die. Their death may be extremely painful to the loved ones involved, but life happens. It is NOT selfish to take your own life.
If I don't want to live one more minute-then I should legally and morally be able to end it all. After all-It is MY life-not yours!

Nobody is arguing against the personal right of someone to commit suicide. That's an easy argument, which is why so many people here are arguing for it. The issue is whether or not there should be some form of sanctioned means to do it.

...if I were to be against it, I would be pretending that I know something that they did not. As far as "state sanctioned" (I've always found it interesting that the word sanction has essentially two different opposite meanings) goes, it is already happening in at least one area of this world. My vision of the future includes the inevitability of suicide being a readily available commodity everywhere. It is only a matter of time.
Thanks to Petrarch for the stat "amounting to more than three suicides for every two murders." At least we are killing ourselves more than we are killing each other. Every cloud has a silver lining.

"In my 30 years of medical practice not once did I need to resort to the suggestion of killing a patient as a solution to pain and stress," Dr Wong said.

"In a caring environment, with the support of family members, doctors, nurses, counsellors or religious persons, in an absolute majority of cases, terminal illness can be handled with dignity and a certain degree of comfort," said Dr Wong.

"The (proposal) of such a bill only indicates the loss of faith of a society (which cannot) show (the) compassion to care and support those dying (with) pain and suffering."
http://www.catholicweekly.com.au/01/feb/11/story_1.html
AMA plea: Bar suicide aid
WASHINGTON -- The AMA this month led 46 national and state health care groups in petitioning the Supreme Court not to legalize physician-assisted suicide. The AMA filed friend-of-the-court briefs in two cases that will be argued before the high court early next year, warning that sanctioned suicide aid would put many patients "at serious risk for unwanted and unnecessary death." The briefs called the prospect of federally guaranteed physician-assisted suicide "ironic" in a society that guarantees no other right to health care.
http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick/pick1125.htm

The Ishmael Gradsdovic Papers, part forty-six
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 94 16:46:45 PST
From: Ishmael Gradsdovic
To: Conference on Lifestyle Alternatives
Subject: Rough Draft Outline for Suicide Note Writer's Workshop
Message-Id: <9409302346.AA13092@slo.ludtech.com>
I. Welcome
1) Welcome to the Suicide Note Writing workshop
a) This is not a course in how to commit suicide
b) This is not a forum for discussing the ethics of suicide
c) I am not giving any legal advice or estate planning advice
d) I am not encouraging anyone to commit suicide
2) Objectives of the workshop
a) You will learn about what suicide notes are for
b) You will learn what makes a good suicide note
c) You will learn to avoid common problems and pitfalls
d) You will construct your own suicide note
3) What a suicide note is not
a) A suicide note is not a last will and testament
1. I am not qualified to give legal advice regarding a will
2. A suicide note is a poor place for estate planning, as the law tends to believe that the writer was not "of sound mind and body" immediately prior to a suicide.
4) What a suicide note is
a) A place to explain why you are killing yourself
b) A place for last messages to loved ones
c) A place for reflecting on despair and death
d) A place for summing up your life, achievements, and wisdom
e) A place to make a final defense against your accusers
f) A way to provoke guilt in selected survivors while alleviating it in others
5) Why suicide notes are important
a) Answers inevitable questions of those left behind
1. Why did this person commit suicide?
2. Could I have done anything about it?
3. What does this person know about the futility of existence that I don't know?
4. How can I respect this person's memory?
b) Provides valuable insight from someone with one foot in the grave
1. Useful for other people confronting death or contemplating suicide
2. Of interest to psychologists, psychiatrists and counsellors
c) Allows you to say things you wouldn't want to say if you were going to be alive afterwards
d) Helps you provide a 'spin' to the media coverage of your death

II. Constructing a Good Suicide Note
--------------------------------
1) Take your time and get a good perspective
a) Don't dwell on recent events (Remember: You're going to be dead forever, so take a long-term perspective)
2) Write down a list of objectives before you compose the note. Some possible objectives include:
a) Saying goodbye to friends and loved ones
b) Explaining what led you to your decision
c) Explaining why alternatives to suicide were unappealing
d) Letting people know what they could have done to prevent the suicide, or that there was nothing they could have done
e) Coming out of the closet
f) Coming clean about past misdeeds or secrets
g) Telling people what you really think of them
h) Giving your own perspective on death and dying, or on the afterlife
i) Apologizing for inconvenience of dealing with the body, mourning, etc.
j) Taking a last jab at enemies
k) Dedicating your death to a political, spiritual or artistic cause
l) Summing up your life and achievements
m) Explaining in a nutshell the lessons you've learned from your life
3) Write the note
a) Do so spontaneously at first -- just let yourself go, be creative, and don't be critical.
b) Don't worry about meeting each of your objectives at first.
4) Check the note against your list of objectives
a) Modify the note if necessary to fulfill objectives and remove contradictions
5) Try to anticipate how the media will view the note and which parts of it will be excerpted.
a) If there are parts you especially want them to use, use the Soundbite technique to suggest them to the reporters:
1. Use clear, active-voice sentences
2. Be straightforward
3. Be brief
b) If you are including anything in the note which may cause the note to be withheld from the media, consider writing a separate note for the press and/or general public
6) Be sure to proofread!
7) Place the note properly
a) Don't place it where it will be damaged during the suicide
b) Don't place it where it will be found before you are dead
8) There are exceptions to every rule

III. Common Mistakes and Pitfalls
----------------------------
1) A misplaced note
a) Placed where it will be damaged by blood, water, or fire
b) Placed where it will be overlooked
c) Placed where it might decompose or be damaged by insects before it is found
d) Placed where someone might come across it before you kill yourself.
2) An illegible note
a) Tear stains
b) Possible use of this in certain circumstances as a device or to make the note more puzzling or enigmatic
3) An unsigned, typed note (people may allege that it was written by a murderer)
4) A note with misspellings, poor grammar, and/or unclear sentences
a) You probably want to leave a good last impression
b) The print media probably will not correct your errors when they choose excerpts, and may even comment on errors made
5) An unintentionally contradictory note
(show examples)

IV. Constructing Your Suicide Note
------------------------------
1) Ask yourself some questions:
a) What are your specific circumstances?
b) If there were no note, what conclusions would people draw about your suicide?
c) How would you change these conclusions if you could?
2) Decide on your main purpose(s) for making this last declaration
3) Hold this general gestalt in mind while going through the steps we discussed.
4) Imagine reading your note from the point of view of various people who might read it. How will they react? Will they have any unanswered questions or misunderstandings?
5) Do a soundbite-check to anticipate media coverage

V. Conclusion
----------
1) Thank participants for attending
http://www.syntac.net/dl/Ishmael/part46.html

[This message was edited by thenostromo on 06-07-01 at 01:37 AM.]

In regards to the whole Suicide Legality issue, I would like to venture an opinion that would probably not be very popular, but at the same time, is my opinion nonetheless.

Several years ago, while watching Star Trek, the Next Generation, an episode came on dealing with the topic of STANDARDIZED RITUAL SUICIDE. It was actually a tradition among the people of the world in question that, when a person reached a certain age, they committed suicide. This was done irrespective of mental capacity, continued value to the society, or how much family was left behind. This tradition was begun and perpetuated to prevent an aging family member from becomming a burden on the rest of the family. However, there were other logical reasons for this tradition:

1) It prevented a drain on natural resources
2) It prevented overpopulation of the planet
3) It reduced waste products/pollution
4) It prevented abuse of the elderly in improperly run facilities
5) It prevented long, painful deaths, such as those associated with Alzheimers, Cancer, and other dibilitating diseases.
6) It allowed the elderly the choice of how they wished to die, and to die with dignity
7) The family of the elders were better able to cope with their loss, allowing them to mourn or celebrate in a manner which is much easier to deal with for many people.

The entire tradition was treated with much respect, and the situation was treated with as much reverence and joy as the birth of a child.

In many ways, I agree completely with this tradition, and wish our world had similar traditions. This is NOT to say I do not love and respect my grandparents and parents. But I know from experience the kind of pain and suffering involved in watching people die slow and painful deaths due to diseases such as cancer and AIDS.

So what is my point here?

I think perhaps there should be laws which allow people who wish to commit suicide to do so, and that there should be a relatively painless and clean method to accomplish this. However, I also believe it needs to be strictly regulated. The easiest way to do this is by the requirements of age and physical health.

Why?

Because it is my personal opinion that children, teenagers, and most females during PMS are not rational enough to make any kind of decision concerning the value of their lives. (And before anyone goes flying off the handle about my PMS Statement, I'm female, and am of the opinion that anyone who says they are completely rational during their menstrual period is fooling themselves) On the same note, most males go through a similar cycle where THEY are not rational enough to make decisions about the value of their lives.

However, no one who is in pain, who is suffering from a terminal disease, or who has lived a full life and simply feel it is time to move on, should be forced to continue living.

And before anyone starts expounding on the pain inflicted on those left behind, and how we should all consider the feelings of the people effected by the death, there is one small point that it seems most people have decided to overlook.

Since when has the choice to live or die been subject to a committee?

Never.

How many drunk drivers ever bothered to ask the person they killed whether that individual wished to live?

None

So let's not confuse the issue. The survivors of ANY death, regardless of the method (disease, murder, or suicide) learn to live with it. They question, they mourn, and they eventually accept and move on.

And it is my opinion that it might very well be time to START giving people (certain people, anyway) the option to die with dignity and grace...

Peace...

Myschief

if i may interject......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a patient of an east hartford psychiatrist and a consumer of multiple anti-depressants on today's market for almost two years (just so you can understand where my point of view comes from...), I am thoroughly happy that there is no suicide pill or form of euthanasia. Had I had access to any form of these drugs i would have taken them all, just to be sure, and been happy as a pig in sh*t to have done so. But living these past two years i have realized the value of a life. I have lost a friend, a grandmother, and other people close to my heart. To even have to comprehend that a life must be taken at the age of 18 because of epileptic siezures and no desire of his own, someone I know has passed away, just before we graduate. To think that someone would actually do this by choice, to understand the pain involved, to comprehend the togetherness it causes, to know that there's one less of our precious peer group that has grown with us andloved and laughed and cried with us is heartwrenching. For someone to do this purposely, no matter the age, social class, lifestyle..... Life is precious, life is a gift. It's all you've got, right up till the end. Make it worthwhile, long, full of love, and happiness. Enjoy it to the fullest.

P.S.
I don't even believe in any type of god, this is not a sermon and i am not preaching to you. It's the truth, and many will tell you the same.

~Katherine~
"We are the people our parents warned us about..."~Jimmy Buffet

I have been away from the debate for a while, but after reading what has been posted since my last visit, decided to rejoin it. This is what I don't understand: There are people on here who are overcoming or even just fighting depression, you are the people who are realizing that life is possible worth living-great. However, I don't understand why this is an argument-this is why: if you had not received treatment, if you had not or were not taking antidepressants-would your opinion be different. If you were in that current state of mind and had committed suicide(which luckily is not the case) would you know that life was worth living? Chances are you wouldn't; therefore, you would have been doing what you wanted anyway. I'm sorry if this doesnt' make sense, all I'm trying to say is that although you now think you would miss life, you would have been happy to end it at the time, either way; you got what you wanted.

-Jess

P.S. Thenostromo: Thank you for your "how to write a suicide note" reference, it will be of great use to those who need it; I think if a person is going to commit suicide they should at least let those who care about them know a reason or two why they did it.

Love,
-Jess

these methods may be the only thing preventing suidice to some people. I have never liked the idea of putting a gun to my head and pulling the trigger, or taking the knife to my skin and pressing down... I struggled with immense depression and suicidal tendencies in the past... been there, taken the kinfe... and almost ended my life. However, I was scared...

I know that if there were such a thing as a "suicide pill" then more people would begin taking their lives... the fear would no longer be present.

Having a "suicide pill" on the market would only make the fast-growing suicide statistics increase. suicide is already the easy way out, why make it any easier?

"I think they shoot 'cause they want it."

In one of my deep depressions, I feel the same way as Pavlov. I want it over..DONE! I have suffered with Bipolar Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder all my life. I was finally diagnosed and put on med after med at 16. I have tried ECT (which affected memory) and had a VNS implant put in. I still have mood swings, just not as bad.

Hello everyone.
I'm 16 and right now I have a really big problem: I probably won't pass high school. It's an embarassing thing to admit, even to a forum full of people I don't even know. I can easily say that I'm not the type of person you'd expect to mess up academically. And yes, I know that I'm partly responsible, but at the same time, I've realized that this year I really tried my hardest. I did all my work, tried my best on tests and exams but didn't do well on alot of them, and gave my teachers all of my attention.
I'm failing in high school, and the thing that kills me is that fact that I'm trying my hardest.

All of my friends have really high GPAs, ranging from 3.0 to 4.325, and I find myself constantly lying about my own to keep from feeling like an idiot. I don't really have a self esteem; I hate everything about myself. I've seen a counselor, but recieved no help on any front, and I'm just completely embarassed and miserable.

I've been contemplating suicide for quite a while now, but I can't get myself to do it. I don't want the pain and I also don't want to leave the things that give me pleasure, such as music.
Everyone here seems to say that someone like me is "depressed" and "has an illness", but I don't really think that's entirely true. I agree with one of the eaarlier posts that "depression" and "unhappiness" are somewhat different. I do feel very rational and I don't really like someone telling my different. I just feel like I don't really need to be here and that if I continue, I'll end up living a life I never wanted.

I want to be an anesthesiologist and stick with my best friend throughout college. I want to travel and see the world, but those dreams aren't too realistic right now.

I think there shouldn be a suicide pill. I feel that if someone wants to die, let them. It's kind of like population control and I never saw a point in forcing an unhappy person to live.

I know that at 16 my frontal lobe isn't fully developed, causing my judgement to be a bit clouded, but I still feel that its right.

You feel that it is right because you think it is alright to give up on those around you and or is that you forgot about them??

I wish sometimes I could just die, but I would be letting my only begotten son down, my woman, my mother, my father, my brothers, my sisters, my grandparents, and so many more. You think you have tough, well buddy you don't know tough yet. You taken a great fall, but now is the time to raise again and complete your clamb for the top of the mountain. Trust me friend, you've got no idea what tough is yet.

You've ran into a time where you need to make a decison where you can either accept your failer and try again, or accept it and leave it, but killing yourself is never an option; clearly, you've given up.

Trust me, you don't know tough yet....


"If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue with me, correct me - but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way." -Roger Ebert

Well you see, that's the thing. I can't bring myself to do it because of the physical pain on myself and also what it could possibly do to my friends and half my family.
But I want more than anything to just suck it up and do it.

I just think of it like this: "It's one less human being out of 6.4 Billion, how much of a difference will it make?" and "People will move on no matter what"

I know I have alot more, bigger, problems ahead of me, but this one decides my entire life. My parents have already given up on my academics, and I'm always worrying too much about what others think of me.

If I don't get though high school, there really is no way to "rise again and climb to the top of the mountain", you know?

I know it sounds like I'm being really negative, and in a sense I am, but this is all turning into a real nightmare for me.

Instead of feeling despair for the insignificance you think your life carries, embrace it. Who cares if it seems like your life is unimportant, there is far too much beauty in the world to enjoy while you're there.

And as for rising to the top, what is the need? Just enjoy life, and do what you like to do for the sake of doing it just because you like to. If you really want to do something, there's always a way if you look for it.

Trust me, I had your outlook on life for a long time, but once you just accept it for what it is, life is a lot easier and happier. Besides, even the most seemingly insignificant part of a system, once removed, can cause it to all come crashing down.

"He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God." -Aeschylus

While this isn't a debate at all, you have to realise that highschool is not the be-all-and-end-all of life, as many people make it out to be.

You just relax, do what you can, and you will find your nieche. Highschool does not determine the rest of your life.

I second what Agent said. Take it easy, find the real beauties in life. Hope this helps.


(Now, what is the debate?)

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

Damn right!

I failed High School.
Went back to study enough to get some qualifications to get into a university only to drop out (got kicked out actually).

Didn't start to get a career until I was in my 30's.

I was lucky enough to have friends and family who were ok about it.

I'm surrounded by people who failed high school but who are successful.

Do NOT despair. It's shit at the moment but, unlike Topgun's assessment, I think it gets better. Think of what you enjoy and think of how you can make a living out of that. There may be nothing at the moment that you do enjoy - but keep your eyes and ears open. A door will open.

I promise you.

Get Curious!