Personally, I just think he was just a man who just had an orgasmic discovery that day and he needed to get some stuff off his chest.

Like that one.

"Our differences are what make us interesting."

"The more I experience the world, the less I realize I know."

Anyone wandering where Waterlily's poem went? That's right. Into trash. Do not post more than one topic per day (24 hours). I've said this many times.

I'll post it back up tomorrow. Warning to all: I'm quite within the rules to delete them. So dont give me the pleasure.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

Anyone wandering where Waterlily's poem went? That's right. Into trash. Do not post more than one topic per day (24 hours). I've said this many times.

Sorry about that. I was looking at the dates..not at the times. I just got a little ahead of myself. Not intentional.

By the way, I was just curious. I see all sorts of titles floating around here. What's the difference between a facilitator and a moderator, as far as QL goes?



"Our differences are what make us interesting."

"The more I experience the world, the less I realize I know."

[This message was edited by Waterlily on 06-05-07 at 03:25 AM.]

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Grasp the subject and the words will follow.
~ Cato the Elder (or censor) 234-149bc Roman. Statemans, orator and writer.

quote:

---

Originally posted by requote:
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

---

"In Hoc Signo Vinces."

εν τούτω νίκα???

"O heaven above me! thou pure, thou lofty heaven! This is now thy purity unto me, that there is no eternal reason–spider and reason–cobweb:—

—That thou art to me a dancing–floor for divine chances, that thou art to me a table of the Gods, for divine dice and dice–players!"
~Friedrich Nietzsche

quote:

---

Originally posted by Waterlily:
By the way, I was just curious. I see all sorts of titles floating around here. What's the difference between a facilitator and a moderator, as far as QL goes?

---

The Debate Forum only is overseen by 'Facilitators' as a reflection of how that role differs from general moderation of the rest of the Forums. They facilitate civilised exchange in what will inevitably be heated discussion. The nature of debate presumes that passion and intensity is inevitable and good and needing direction rather then extinguishing. It begs a special discernment because as we know, in debate an agressive tirade could be harmless and fun whilst a seemingly innocuous comment can in fact be incendiary.

It came about a couple of years ago when the Debate Forum caught fire in a combustible way and nearly brought the house down on us.

Back to the topic at hand: a real question about the site in general.

Workshop was created so writers looking for advice could get it. But it appears to me, coming back after an extended absence, that it is not used much, and that even pieces that are posted do not get much in terms of replies. New pieces seem to be posted there about once every 10 days, and are lucky if one or two members respond.

PPF is for "finished" work, and limited critiques (I'm trying to remember the limited part!). So members offer compliments and are accused of fawning. But - because of the nature of the forum, we're to consider the works completed, and limit ourselves to corrective notes regarding "sticky flow" or a grammatical error.

In general, the quality of poems on PPF has gone up - there appears to be fewer raw adolescent emotional dumps - but I wonder if some writers are posting somewhere else, where "finished" work would still get robust critiques. You can't improve if no one is pushing you for more - I know I can't, and much as I HATE being critiqued, I appreciate and consider the alternate views offered.

So the question (I was getting to it eventually) is: Does the current set-up with workshop/PPF work, or would the site be better and more active without workshop, and with the understanding that posting on PPF opened the door to critical responses?

-----

Well, you got secrets and scars you hide
Well, you got closets with bones inside
Well, that's ok baby, So do I
I won't criticize
Baby, I'll just share the ride

I've always felt that 'Workshop' gives the impression of guidance/analysis by accredited teachers, writers or critics with a good grasp of classical poetry, rather than peer impressions of what is good (or less good)....... so for that reason I'm more inclined to vote for putting Workshop to bed.

Perhaps replacing Workshop with a Reference Library for links to online dictionary,Thesthaurus, poetry styles and examples etc , as Waterlily was quering in SB recently? Also bits of advice from accredited writers on writing. Anything reference library-ish?

Re: The Road Ahead

I have a tiny bit of a gripe here. Why are some people so SERIOUS all the time? Not to single anyone out, because its not just a single poster. I have seen it in other posts too.

I just want to say that sometimes, we just need to see the uniqueness, that free-spiritedness in poetry. Sometimes its like we try to tie it all up into neat little packages. And that's not the way it works. Look at Shell Silverstein. He doesn't always flow, and he rhymes to the point of downright silliness sometimes (I know, he's a children's poet), some would say he's a terrible poet, but he's enjoyable read.

Sometimes, thats just the point. To be an enjoyable, light hearted read. Not to be perfect or Shakespeare. While critque is always welcome, sometimes the 'punishment" (critique)doesn't always fit the crime (the poem).

I think we need to sometimes we need understand a poem's intent. What is the author trying to convey? Is it serious work? Is it something to laugh about? What does the author want to tell us.

Poetry is fun, even when the subject is heavy. I used to tell my fourth graders, poetry is like a mystery and they are the detectives. Sometimes the author has a hidden meaning, and sometimes its obvious. Either way, its the reader's job to discover the meaning.

In the poem in question, I think that whatever negative critique there was about her poem, it was just her illustration to convey the intent of it. Sometimes our poetry is bad, but we can laugh about it.

Enough said. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and this was just my own opinion.



"Our differences are what make us interesting."

"The more I experience the world, the less I realize I know."

quote:

---

So the question (I was getting to it eventually) is: Does the current set-up with workshop/PPF work, or would the site be better and more active without workshop, and with the understanding that posting on PPF opened the door to critical responses?

---

So, basically-- back to a Writer's Club?

We had problems with that, too. Critiques were also the same, and often too harsh or unwarranted or unasked for, and it was dying down because of people getting fed up with responses that weren't to their liking one way or the other.

[one of the "Writer's Workshop" threads that sort of restates all that.]



I also agree with Waterlilly... I've always been a fan of being allowed to post things that aren't very good, but are lots of fun... that I have no intention of "reworking" or turning into a masterpiece. I wouldn't say they were drivel, but they aren't up to par with what I can write. Where does stuff like that go, then? If I don't want to hear that I'm sucking the life energy out of the world? Not on this site?

(On a side note, I very rarely get this kind of critique and I have the feeling it's because I've stated multiple times that I don't want them. Maybe it's all as simple as recombining, and stating what it's for in the beginning... "For Critique", "Just for Fun".)

Yes, it's true that the workshop isn't very active and that very often it is the same people posting there and responding, but the demarcation from the poetry forum marks a no-nonsense clear agreement between the poster and the replier to consent to the criticism they receive. I have never heard of any complaints from anyone regarding any response in a personal capacity from those who have posted there. I think it would be rather tiresome to add a 'please critique' or a 'please don't critique' or even a sticky to the effect that 'those signatories below will not at any time consent to a critique of their work.'

The one thing I love about the workshop is that it gives me freedom to read and critically respond in a personal ('I like this part...') as well in an academic form. It is evident that many people have different ideas of how 'serious' a critique should be, though they should bear in mind that 1) humour is an art in itself, to post something completely frivolous would be to edge uncomfortably close to the realm of the non-sensical (Jabberwocky aside) 2) the recent critiques I made in PF were designed to draw attention to my views here on this thread (see two previous posts).

In essence I say, keep the workshop, and encourage others to use it more- it is a fantastic forum for learning, discussing and most importantly creating!

Stella Splendens
December 22, 1985 - March 27, 2003
RIP
...Always.

“The Moderator"

Who Monitors the Monitors

I know it’s not I

They watch every writing

and say it’s not right

What style I write

Is not theirs to compare

My strokes may be different

Though my words speak through

They say what I want

For it’s the Poet who feels

I care for the World

and Moderators who sneer

So listen up Fellows

and make us all one

Our Hearts will be served

When you don’t

Throw in your puns.

A Poeatreeman

My pen is my Heart
God!
Gave me a Hand
He let me use a Tear
To write this by Hand
12/14/94

Edgar Allan Prieto
6/11/2007
Copyright ©2007 Edgar Allan Prieto

[This message was edited by POEATREEMAN on 06-11-07 at 04:43 PM.]

[This message was edited by POEATREEMAN on 06-11-07 at 05:39 PM.]

[This message was edited by POEATREEMAN on 06-11-07 at 07:11 PM.]

I brought up the issue of basically returning to the old Writers Forum, partially because there is so little traffic on Workshop. Very few people post there, even fewer appear to reply. We split when the site was much busier - the Writing side of QL seems to have slowed to a fraction of what it had been at the time they broke it up. Also, I'm trying hard to keep to the spirit of PPF, but may sometimes have additional comments to make, and feel shackled from asking questions because it is "for finished work." I'll deal tho' - and try to remember that despite my post count, I'm really a newbie on the site again.


POETREEMAN: You have a very specific style, and that's your right. However, it makes understanding your responses difficult when you reply in poems. While I would never try to quiet one's muse, it would be easier for the rest of us if you could actually reply in full sentences once in a while. Think about it - the whole point is communication, isn't it?

-----

Well, you got secrets and scars you hide
Well, you got closets with bones inside
Well, that's ok baby, So do I
I won't criticize
Baby, I'll just share the ride

To Rhon831

Here is my best responds
I wrote it with my heart
Now you can see
How hard it is to keep heart

Quote
requote

Member
posted 06-11-07 09:40 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope:
Clearly you come from a deep culture where people are labeled 'terrorist', and it's left at that.

Here comes the blatant honesty: Your poem has hardly any form to make coherent sense out of it, it's more a stream of consciousness, which isnt necessarily a good thing. Punctuation needs serious work, for example

Sorry for the 'honesty', but if you're going to post poems at the rate of knots that you do, you're going to need some criticism to improve. Otherwise we get a neverending stream of static, and not development.

-------------
I agree with B.O.H
-------------


“ Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” ~ Anon

The conscience of Poetryman:

Their belief has no beginning
Except to see our end.

How are we to fight this Foe?
By attacking their beliefs.

Our guns may take a few of them
Still the course will not be won.

We must keep them
Where they will do less harm
Back in the spider’s web.

Our course is ours,
and not theirs to take.

A Poeatreeman
Moral sense
I am not the conscience
of a nation
I am part of its awakening

-------------------

“He who speaks evil only differs from his who does evil in that he lacks opportunity.” ~ Marcus Fabius Quintilian

“ Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” ~ Anon

That’s goodbye from me Poetryman and goodbye to you. Full stop end of story.

Well then, maybe we just need some sort of guideline to what clarifies as an "over the line" critique.

I guess my problem with it all is that people so easily step over the lines of what I consider fair criticism.

I mean, there's really only so many different types of feedback...

1. Grammar/Spelling (corrections)
2. Flow/Structure (corrections or praise)
3. Content (corrections, elaboration, request for more.)
4. Personal Positive Feelings (inspiration, laugh, smile)
5. Personal Negative Feelings (dislike perspective or topic)
6. Reference (to something related to the poem)
7. Critiques of Critiques (replies to replies)
8. Poet Comparative

And combinations of those.


I don't think anyone minds #1 or #2. That's a quality issue that QL's constitution even supports. No one really minds #4 or #6, even if they don't really help anything.

#3 is one of those fine lines... I think when JWPublius comes in with a Latin correction, we're all grateful and appreciative of his fair critiques. It's too easy to let this one mix with #5, though. Which, I feel, is really unnecessary.

I feel like #5 ends up being something akin to, "What a silly little topic." or "That's the silliest perspective I've ever heard!" So why bother responding? It neither helps or adds any real merit to our site.

#8 is also one of those touchy subjects. It's the "This is better or worse than your usual stuff because..." I have a personal dislike with this one, though no real dispute over its acceptance in the forums. Mostly because I'm so all over the place with my writing. This is really a matter of relationships. There are some people who can tell me I went above and beyond, and it helps me to know that I'm on a better style... and those same are the only I feel are qualified to tell me when I'm talking gibberish. I think a lot of people feel the need to defend themselves when someone cites their work as "lower quality" than usual.

It's really only #5 I have a problem with, and like I said, it's worse because people hide under the shroud of another style of critique... as if being rude is defendable for any reason. When it very obviously is not.

To Fair_GwenofAir

Thanks, you have said it better than I

I like your steps, Those, the ones you pointed out that are negative, I care not test

Quote

1. Grammar/Spelling (corrections)
2. Flow/Structure (corrections or praise)
3. Content (corrections, elaboration, request for more.)
4. Personal Positive Feelings (inspiration, laugh, smile)
5. Personal Negative Feelings (dislike perspective or topic)
6. Reference (to something related to the poem)
7. Critiques of Critiques (replies to replies)
8. Poet Comparative

And combinations of those.

5. Personal Negative Feelings (dislike perspective or topic)

I think you will find that this theme is common in literary criticism, and important. It should be dealt with carefully, and without baseless condemnation, but it should be dealt with.

quote:

---

I think you will find that this theme is common in literary criticism, and important. It should be dealt with carefully, and without baseless condemnation, but it should be dealt with.

---

I would agree. I think some of the best literary discussions started on the basis that I just didn't like something... a word, topic, speed of reading. Of course, that is a basis for literary discussion, not criticism... a #4 criticism met with silence. On this, I'm not clear with the PPF rules-- if WL's poem on Descartes (sorry to put you on the spot, WL) had led to a civil discussion of Descartes... would it still have been out of line? Rhon was right when she mentioned we have appropriate forums for this now, but then, I'm not sure if it's a bad thing to have a poem inspire a debate/discussion.

Aside from that, my argument is that it's often done in a way that is just rude. A commentary/judgment is often made on the writer, not the poem. And when it crosses the line, it's almost impossible for a moderator to moderate. Just like when #4 Personal Positive Feelings becomes "fawning".

I went through the first couple pages of this forums and I find few examples of things I consider fawning, or rudeness. I mean, when it gets bad, it's bad, but it so rarely happens compared to days of old that I'm not sure if any of this really matters. It seems (to me) like we have this as in control as we're going to get it.

My thoughts on this are less personal and more theoretical so if someone wants this to just... end, I'm okay with that, too.

Fair and Fuzzies,

You're avoiding the real issue at hand here. It's all very well to list the different types of feedback but that doesn't alleviate the current situation.

Some here have already suggested an amalgamation of the Workshop and Poetry, but I have argued above that this is not the best option as it will cause more difficulties between members who for example will relish feedback criteria 1-4 but will not consent to 5-7 (purely hypothetical without recourse to the actual list, but you can see here what I'm getting at).

The bottom line is- unless you mean to actually apply this criteria to the different forums to designate what is and what is not acceptable- then the list is useless. I would go further and say that such a diverse set of criteria ranging from the personal to the critical warrants the continuation of both forums separately.

Stella Splendens
December 22, 1985 - March 27, 2003
RIP
...Always.