Fairgwen, I appreciate your decency in removing my inappropriate post. I'm quite ok with having bricks handed out to clunk me in private but your public dealing with it goes a long way to restore confidence in Admin.

Now, boh, who is intensely critical of how most of us reply to poetry here, offers this in response to a poem and I'd like to hold it up for critique discussion about whether this direction he wants to take critiquing in, is really superior to what has previously happened.

boh ~ "Err...
.."it's brilliant. Brilliant, I say. Nothing to improve on. In fact, you never, ever, ever have to consider about improving ever again..."

Stay happy. Stay safe, Poeatreeman."

~hope~

I agree that the forums should stay separate, if only because the problems we're having now don't compare to how crazy things got with only one forum. That's a matter for debate, but I'm not sure it has a place in a thread about acceptable and not acceptable replies to the poetry prose forum threads.

The obvious problem is the application of the criteria, though thank you for restating it.

But with the very real factor of subjectiveness, how to apply the criteria is second to what is the criteria. Hence the list.

Moderators can't be expected to apply rules to feedback when there's no guideline as to what is acceptable.

EE

I posted just after you. No worries, we've all had inappropriate post moments. What we do to go forward is what's important.

I changed my mind on the question of BoH's reply to that poem. I think it's probably in the best interest of coming to terms with what is acceptable and what is not if we avoid quoting specific replies. As I said, many of us have had inappropriate replies, just as many of us have had the sort of replies a girl just wants to frame on her wall. That said, as you have a problem with the reply, I would suggest asking another moderator to make a judgment call, or asking TN. Or hey, maybe even asking BoH himself. That is of course, my two cents as a user, not as a moderator... so I'm not forcing that decision anywhere.

[This message was edited by Fair_GwenofAir on 06-13-07 at 08:47 PM.]

Fair,

Firstly, discussing the merits of the current forums is an important part of realising the situation as it stands that we find ourselves in.

Workshop:

All feedback welcome.

Poetry:

Listed feedback, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8. Some of 1- but if there seems to be gross or continual errors than a suggestion to move the work to the workshop or a simple request by the replier to give a critique will suffice. All other feedback should politely be suggested to be raised in the workshop or alternatively in private.

My simple solution which I have maintained through out is encourage more people to use workshop. Will someone please explain to me why people feel like they don't want or need to improve?

Stella Splendens
December 22, 1985 - March 27, 2003
RIP
...Always.

quote:

---

Will someone please explain to me why people feel like they don't want or need to improve?

---

Personally, when I post, I consider my work to be finished - I've edited, re-read and rewritten (usually). That doesn't mean I'm not willing to consider alternate viewpoints, but I'm not putting it because I need help cleaning it up. Does that make sense? When I needed advice on "A Prayer for My Son" I posted on workshop. When I posted "The Golden Rule" it was to share... but I still welcomed your critique.

I don't know if this is part of the problem, or a different one altogether, but the lack of participation in general is disturbing. Approximately one piece a week - maybe - has been posted on workshop since I started checking back in - and those piece were lucky if one person reviewed it. How can we have a "workshop" forum, if the members aren't going to offer the advice that is requested? Anyone - especially anyone new - who "want(s) or need(s) to improve" is going to go to a different site where there is acknowledgement of their efforts and a variety of responses and discourse.

A similar problem is in the lack of posting on PPF. Maybe the responses aren't coming, because no one know what they're allowed to say! I reviewed the top 25 posts on PPF (discounting Doug's hello and Ryan Mc's apology) - and the fact that 10 different writers posted them is encouraging - except that the older of these are almost two weeks past their last response, and the majority of them were posted by the same 4 writers. (I have 4 pieces, Waterlily had 6, Poeatreeman has 4 and Tasha has 3.) In addition, writers of the top 25 (the others are Fair with 2, and JChill, QT, Ryan and Macsimus Reign with 1 each) are the ones replying to each other - but again, there's only so much one can say - the majority of the threads have 5 or fewer responses.

I know there are other writers still on the boards - I see their names on all the other forums. So how do we get them to start participating on PPF again?

-----

Well, you got secrets and scars you hide
Well, you got closets with bones inside
Well, that's ok baby, So do I
I won't criticize
Baby, I'll just share the ride

quote:

---

quote: Will someone please explain to me why people feel like they don't want or need to improve?



Personally, when I post, I consider my work to be finished

---

And right there is the exact reason PPF is down the tubes in terms of quality, and why Workshop has eventually been neglected. The fact a poet/writer considers the work 'finished' does not give it merit, nor is it the soul source of any other merit.

We are not Hemmingways and Brontes, here. We are lovely, normal people (myself excluded) writing poetry that should be encouraged through our betterment. IF we continue to backslap each other and say 'I thought it was lovely' (which LITERALLY looks like it's been copied and pasted from one thread to the next), you're cheapening everything about this site, you're making the forum completely irrelevant, and it's really little more than a rubber stamp of putting your poetry up - the 'photobucket' for your doodles.

Too harsh? Im never one to shoot the messenger.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

Ok...I have finally read this from beginning to end and this is my take on the issues.

Quoteland challenges our imaginations, feeds our intellectual souls, and the poetry - the art of rhythmical composition, written or spoken, for exciting pleasure by beautiful, imaginative, or elevated thoughts shared with the masses are some of the best poems that I have ever read.

I have often wondered why so many people read my poems and never make a comment. I am after all interested in what you have to say. Everyone sees things differently and I do wonder if you are “vibbing” with me. I want to know if we are on the same page or if I am out in left field. I want you to feel my love…share my pain and read my poems for God’s sake!

Ahhhh! Opinions? I am willing to accept them too. However; we all know what people say about opinions. ...They are like azzholes and everyone has one. So, opinions are ok!

So, I am giving you my two-cents worth:

1. I post my poems as finished products because I want to share what I'm feeling at the moment with others. Rarely, do I post in the workshop, because I don’t want to appear to be unlearned to the www. I do have a few poems that I could use feedback on and if I decide to post them in the workshop, they will be as perfect as I can get them without your help! (Rico, my little brother) post to Quoteland and he’s always competing with me. I really hate his criticism because hell, what can a little brother say to a big sister thatwho taught him his abc’s and 123’s. "She writes bad! or she gets too caught up in the rhyme!" I won’t hear of it!

2. Do I care about what you think...Not really! I do however; accept the criticism, comments and suggestions offered with appreciation and respect because poets are visionaries who see life in rhyme schemes, limericks, free verse, sonnets, acoustic, haiku, ballads and a cinquan (see below).

July
Hot, muggy
Firecrackers pop loudly
Exciting, thrilling, and inspiring
Patriotic month

3. Do I like what's said.... sometimes not! I was pissed when accused of plagiarism (and personally, I think I took that comment pretty well).

4. Did I like it? No because the comment was posted for all to see without consulting me first, giving me the benefit of the doubt and was reactionary causing others to search the WWW to authenticate and/or dispute my original work of art.

Therefore, if your poetry perfections are so great that they defy the opinions of the scholars; suck it up, open your mind, and accept the comments offered in the spirit they are intended; don’t take it personal. Especially when you find that others may not be as fond of your masterpieces as you are.

Teachers teach.
Preachers preach.
Students learn and
Versifiers need help.

Writers, who post and don't want criticism shouldn't post. Learning is an everyday process...even in poetry.

So my point is...if you are seeking affirmation for perfection in your poetry...Quoteland may not be the forum for you.

[This message was edited by Cre8tivQT on 06-13-07 at 11:20 PM.]

In theory, yes. But hey. Everyone thinks the poems are 'wonderfully suited to their purpose', nowadays. Criticism is beyond both the poets, who are overly sensitive types, and the readers, who care neither for improvement ('its perfect as it is' - tosh), for the integrity of QL, or the writer. Knowing it's not the best you've ever read, but making someone feel (continuously) that this is so, is just lying. Detrimental lying.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

quote:

---

I know there are other writers still on the boards - I see their names on all the other forums. So how do we get them to start participating on PPF again? - Rhon

---

I think that's one of the most important questions running around here. All I can is from my own experience, that I stopped posting because almost every piece posted was met with derision... at least it seemed that way when I popped in to check.

quote:

---

It's NEVER got anything to do with the critique given. It's ALWAYS about needless nastiness. - EE

---

Agreed.

quote:

---

We are not Hemmingways and Brontes, here. -BoH

---

Also, agreed. But I also don't think that every word I write should be able to stand by Hemmingway's best works and be better. I think you're underestimating writing as a thinking tool, an emotional outlet, and a creative playground. The primary concern is not always literary merit in the sense that many do not write their poetry with the intention of it ending up in a classroom book.

boh - I suggest you re-read my post before suggesting that I consider myself a Hemmingway or Bronte simply because I finish a piece before posting it. I went on to say that I welcome the critiques and suggestions - I am usually the first person to offer critiques to other writers - even on their "finished" work. I have always respected the comments I've gotten on this forum, and was one of the first and loudest to shout when writers responded to critique negatively. Why don't you critique one of my poems - you've ignored them so far - or better yet, read the comments I've posted on others', before condemning me for half of my earlier posting.

I am not the messenger to be shooting at - I believe that fair, respectful and honest responses are required regardless of whether a poem is in Workshop or on PPF. On the flip side - if I think a poem is complete and "lovely"... or moving... or well done, I will say so.

-----

Well, you got secrets and scars you hide
Well, you got closets with bones inside
Well, that's ok baby, So do I
I won't criticize
Baby, I'll just share the ride

I cannot think of a time when I have replied with nastiness. Why reply with nastiness in poetry, for crying out loud? DF, GD, but PPF? There doesnt sound like much of a point.

The only thing that comes to mind is the recent Poeatreeman's 'The Moderator' piece, which was a point directed at me. I directed a point straight back.

Now, of course, the hole in your theory comes when I criticise someone who takes offence. Let's all be honest here, this debate really started under the woeful moderatorship of ohsteve and Dismaltina (says the Worst Moderator of All Time[tm]), who would cry for Argentina at the slightest disagreement. Fuzzies and myself were targeted for being the only 'dissenting' (critiquing) voices whilst you would get streams of dismaltina responses, and now EE responses, all glowingly positive. Funny how it's all so consistent.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

"Fuzzies and myself were targeted for being the only 'dissenting' (critiquing) voices whilst you would get streams of dismaltina responses, and now EE responses, all glowingly positive. Funny how it's all so consistent."

So answer me this. Why is it necessary to obliterate us from responding? Why not just add the appropriate educated responses you seem to say you know as well as let us do what we are happy to do? How does that reduce the site?

I'd really like to know the answer to that because I've been scanning back through here, looking at some of my old saved WordParade threads and had a quick nip over to Worddistillery and it seems your answer is going to be relevant to a hell of a lot of people.

1) Critiques have been dubbed 'nasty'. People were very ready to cry in the Tina/ohsteve days.

2) My willingness to critique isnt in question. It's the blatant disregard for other people's poetry, want to improve (there's no onus on this being an academic site but it's respectful to others in your wanting them to improve) because there is nearly NEVER any critique on the posts at all. So what if it's 'finished'? So what if it isnt the Workshop? If there's something that needs work, say it as honestly as possible. If you dont like criticism, grow up.

Again, we are not Hemmingways or Brontes. So help people improve, for gods sake.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

I am also trying to study for exams, here. If I do not reply today, you know why.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope:
_Anyone wandering where Waterlily's poem went? That's right. Into trash. Do not post more than one topic per day (24 hours). I've said this many times._

I'll post it back up tomorrow. Warning to all: I'm quite within the rules to delete them. So dont give me the pleasure.

---

This exact type of sarcastic holier-than-thou attitude is why a lot of good writers no longer post their poetry on this site.

So why come back now and comment on these boards? Because y'all are wondering what's wrong with the poetry forum and how on earth it can be improved.

There are many good and even great writers on this site and as long as they continue to be treated with disrespect then I really don't see how any improvements can be made.

QL was once a site where I could post my poetry and receive constructive criticism. If someone didn't like it, they either didn't reply, or they voiced their dislike but they did so with RESPECT. Now the norm seems to be to slam the poet if one doesn't like his or her work and the cockier the slam the better.

Notice how most of the mature members have left and gone on to greener pastures? There's your answer right there. Immaturity is apparently the new norm on QL these days.

BOH, feel free to delete my post since it obviously gives you pleasure to do so.

~I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.~

I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than to teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
- e e cummings

Conferred the Walrus Memorial Award - 6th April, 2004.

Hi Song_Bird. How are you baby. I am so sorry you have too see all of this.

Come on people. It's not that bad. Let's not make it your life's work.


"Nunc Scio Quit Sit Amor"
But it's still not premarital sex
if you don't plan on getting married

Give me a ****ing break.

Rules are rules. I stepped into the moderatorship of PF because of the complete lack of upholding these rules by the previous moderators. The tone you see there is the result of having to repeat myself over and over again. At least you got the message, now.

Alright, since everyone's assuming that Im not only nasty but also immature to boot...throw the quotes at me. Show me the evidence. I expect boatloads.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

The tone you see there is the result of having to repeat myself over and over again. At least you got the message, now.


No-Give me a ****ing break. Since it was the first time I ever did that, you could have been a bit nicer. I was trying to follow the rules. I just made a mistake.

I really didn't want to get into this discussion, as I haven't been here very long. But I've read the posts and stuff and since you did bring up how righteous you are by "trashing" my poem, I decided to step in.

Next time someone makes a mistake, how about trying: "Hey Waterlilly. One post per day here. I removed your poem, as per the rules, and will repost it tomorrow." Honestly, I don't see that mistake being made too often since I have been here, anyway. Get over yourself.

These people are right to complain. Some of you guys do act like a bunch of big mouth jerks. Just because you know all the big words to put people in their place doesn't make you any better than anyone else. Grow the **** up! Use your powers for good instead of evil for a change.

For example, your exchange with Poatree Man didn't start with the poem, the Moderator. I thought your criticism was a little harsh with "Winning the War on Terror". You don't brow-beat people with the truth. You never even gave him any suggestions on how to improve and it would seem to me he is trying. The Moderator is much easier to understand, even if it is a comeback on you!

Again, we are not Hemmingways or Brontes. So help people improve, for gods sake.

If that's your real motive, you are sadly misguided. Cutting people to the bone is not how you help them improve. Secondly, not everyone wants to be Hemmingway or Bronte. They have their voice. We have our own. You need to recognize that.



"Our differences are what make us interesting."

"The more I experience the world, the less I realize I know."

[This message was edited by Waterlily on 06-14-07 at 02:29 AM.]

Misread. Hemmingway remark = no one here is perfect. We can all improve. Help each other do it.

"To run away from danger, instead of facing it, is to deny one's faith in man and God, even one's own self. It were better for one to drown oneself than live to declare such bankruptcy of faith." - Mahatma Gandhi, 1946

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beacon-of-Hope:
Give me a ****ing break.

Rules are rules. I stepped into the moderatorship of PF because of the complete lack of upholding these rules by the previous moderators. The tone you see there is the result of having to repeat myself over and over again. At least you got the message, now.

Alright, since everyone's assuming that Im not only nasty but also immature to boot...throw the quotes at me. Show me the evidence. I expect boatloads.

---

You may have had to repeat yourself BOH, but informing Waterlilly of the rules would have been best handled by email or PM, not by a public scolding. That's where the immaturity in moderating AND in general interaction with fellow posters has been displayed. You're forgiven though, because you're just a young whipper snapper (at least to me you are) and a lot of that maturity will come with age.

Rules ARE rules. And I do believe that treating your fellow members with respect is one of them. It doesn't matter how many times you have to remind everyone of the rules. What does matter is HOW you remind them. That's part of being a moderator here, James.......you sometimes have to repeat yourself over and over especially when new posters come on board. As tiring as it is, you shouldn't use that tone on any post you make. You're a representative of this site and should always act accordingly. IMO

OT....Hi Max, it's good to see you too baby!

~I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.~

I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than to teach ten thousand stars how not to dance
- e e cummings

Conferred the Walrus Memorial Award - 6th April, 2004.