I wasn't sure where to post this thread..... GD? LKB? or here? I decided to try the rather echoey-empty Lit forum (for Lewis wrote and taught much literature in his time). I'd like to start an informal conversation revolving around the life, works, quotes, and/or historical times of C.S. "Jack" Lewis -- he can be the loose focal point from which to explore many interesting bunny trails, perhaps. Or not. Consider this an experiment. As I don't have many locals with the patience to tolerate my sometimes silly, sometimes sober musings, I'm hoping a few QLers might humor me instead.
quote:It is so fatally easy to confuse an aesthetic appreciation of the spiritual life with the life itself -- to dream that you have waked, washed, and dressed, and then to find yourself still in bed.... ~ from a C.S. Lewis letter.
Lewis' poignant observation caught my eye recently. Set me to wondering. Here he was an Oxford professor breathing the rarified air of academia in the 20th century, pre- and post-W.W. II -- debating, writing position papers, mentoring pupils in ye olde English poetry and such. In C.S. Lewis' quote above, there seems to be a sigh between his lines. He envisions the ideal of what it means to live a godly Christian life but he articulates well how there's a "drag" on the spiritual soul when it comes to actually living it out in real time. Why is that?
I don't know when Jack wrote that letter; was he a Xian yet? I've been a Xian for decades and I can relate to his sentiment. I find it much easier to intellectually write an apologetic in the peace and quiet of my den than to exercise some Christian virtue like extending patience to a crazy road hog or not getting my knickers tied in a knot when a serviceman fails to keep a scheduled appointment or not snapping at a family member when I've had a harried day at work. You get the idea.
Was Lewis able in a measure to keep himself grounded so that he didn't confuse "aesthetic appreciation of the spiritual life with life itself"? Was he a very disciplined man (heck, he had to be somewhat to have written so much!!)? Was there a friend or family member who'd say with candor, "Ah, Jack, you're getting too flighty. Put your argument in a sock and just speak plain English" or "Jack, I thought you were a Christian; why aren't you acting like one?" Was there a certain author or teacher whose straight-talking style he admired and imitated?
On a related note, what I've liked about his writings are that they don't soar into abstract universes with polysyllabic philosophical words echoing in my poor head. I may not always agree with his arguments, but I usually have no trouble comprehending his message. As someone who loves words and who strives to touch my audience via written or spoken word, I envy his ease of communication.... What was his secret?
I have a few ideas I may share eventually, but I'd be curious what others--especially fellow Xians, though not necessarily Xians--might conjecture. Maybe we could start a virtual tavern dialogue: Bartender, a round of ale for my friends!.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
I will sit here, right by the fire, and with a view in the back of the pub. Let me take in the ambience of the place for a minute: people talking and moving busily around, grayness outside trying to pierce through the window, the soft lighting, the rattling of plates and silverware, the hum of muffled conversations, the smell of beer and food in the air, the dark, heavily shellacked wood all around, and the comfortableness of friends in our little corner. Let me move the half empty bottle of ketchup out of the way, take my coat off, order a pint, forget the troubles of the day, and easy comfortably into conversation with friends and the anticipation of talking into “the little hours of the morning.” Lewis is one of my favorite authors. Here are some of the things I know about him.
C.S. Lewis was a member of the "Inklings,” the name of the club he belonged to with J. R. R. Tolkien, Owen Barfield, Charles Williams, and other writers and thinkers of the day. Lewis cherished this time with friends and said that, “Friendship is the greatest of worldly goods.” He spoke frequently of the times meeting with these friends, at the pub, as one of the greatest joys of his life. He said of friendship that, “Certainly to me it is the chief happiness in life.” When they met they talked about books and philosophy. Count me in as a virtual local and eager participant.
As for the quote you mentioned above, it was in a letter to Arthur Greeves, one of his oldest friends. He made the comment after thinking about a passage from the book by George MacDonald, (his favorite author), The Princess and the Goblin. In it one of the characters, in a dream, keeps on dreaming that he has waked up and then finding that he is still in his bed. In another part of the book, a character says to another, “Unless you unclose your hand you will never die and therefore never wake. You may think you have died and even that you have risen again: but both will be a dream.” Before he says that quote in the letter he says, “ This has a terrible meaning, specifically for imaginative people. We read of spiritual efforts, and our imagination makes us believe that, because we enjoy the idea of doing them, we have done them. I am appalled to see how much of the change which I thought I had undergone lately, was only imaginary. The real work seams still to be done.” Maybe the “drag” he is talking about is endemic in every attempt to improve ourselves. For him it was his attempt to work out his spiritual quest.
He wrote that letter on 15 June 1930 and writes that he became a Christian on 28 Sept 1931. I think he wrote that quote when he believed in God but had not brought that belief to its final conclusion in Christianity. He wrote that, on 28 Sept 1931, his friend picked him up in a motorcycle, with I side car, and they were going to the zoo. Lewis said, “I know very well when, but hardly how, the final step was taken. I was driven to Whispnade one sunny morning. When we set out I did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did. Yet I had not exactly spent the journey in thought. Nor in great emotion. ‘Emotional’ is probably the last word we can apply to some of the most important events. It was more like a man, after a long sleep, still lying motionless in bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.”
He explained his spiritual journey as:
“I was baptized in the Church of Ireland. My parents were not notably pious but went to church regularly and took me. My mother died when I was a child.
My Christian faith was first undermined by attitudes taken towards Pagan religion in the notes of modern editors of Latin and Greek poets at school. They always assumed that the ancient religions were pure error: hence in my mind, the obvious question ‘Why shouldn’t ours be equally false?’ A theospphical Matron at one school helped me break up my early beliefs, an after that the ‘Rationalist’ tutor to whom I went to finished the job. I abandoned all belief in Christianity about the age of 14, though I pretended to believe out of fear of my elders. I thus went thro’ the ceremony of Confirmation in total hypocrisy. My beliefs continued to be agnostic, with fluctuations towards pantheism and various other sub-Christian beliefs, till I was about 29.
I was brought back (a.) By Philosophy. I still think Berkeley’s proof for the existence of God is unanswerable. (b.) By increasing knowledge of medieval literature. It became harder and harder to think that all those great poets and philosophers were wrong. (c.) By the strong influences of 2 writers, the Presbyterian George MacDonald and the Roman Catholic, G.K. Chesterton. (d.) By argument with an Anthroposophist (Owen Barfield). He failed to convert me to his own views ( a kind of Gnosticism) but his attack on my own presuppositions smashed the ordinary pseudo-‘scientific’ world-picture forever.”
He often commented on the Philosophical fads of the day. In a letter to a friend and old student of his, he wrote:
“It must be nice to know some Aristotle, and it is a relief to hear that kind of philosophy praised by you who have a right to judge: for in the Oxford world ‘Neo-Scholsticism’ has become such a fashion among all the ignorant undergrads that I am sick of the sound of it….
By the way, I hope that the great religious revival now going on will not get itself too mixed up with Scholasticism, for I am sure that the revival of the later, however salutary, must be as temporary as any other movement in philosophy. Of things on the natural level, now one, now another, is the ally of the enemy of Faith. The scientists have got us in such a muddle that at the present rationalism in on our side, and enthusiasm is an enemy: the opposite was true in the 19th century and will be true again. I mean, we have no abiding city even in philosophy: all passes, except the Word…”
On his writings, I think C.S. Lewis may have been the greatest theologian of the 20th century. He was a “down to earth” man, with a brilliant mind, who liked a drink and a smoke now and then. He definitely does not take the conversation into the clouds to talk over your head.
Thanks for posting this. I am glad you did. I would like to go down the “bunny trials” with whoever wants to. Maybe one idea would be to pick a book to read together and talk about it – if you want.
I have talked too much. My mouth is parched. I am going to take a gulp of my ale and relax. It is still early. Thanks again.
----------------------------- "In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis
[This message was edited by eagleandchild on 07-25-08 at 08:48 AM.]
Posts: 582 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 11-12-07
After such a warm welcome, Eagle, I am ordering myself a mug of coffee so I can stay at the pub and offer a semi-cogent answer; the hour is getting late, and another ale would have me snoring. Oh, and pardon me if I push my empty plate out of the way and set my knapsack of books down on an empty chair nearby; I'm sure I'll be needing to reference them sooner or later.
So many bunny trails, so little time....
quote:On liking his writings, I think C.S. Lewis may have been the greatest theologian of the 20th century. He was a “down to earth” man, with a brilliant mind, who liked a drink and a smoke now and then. He definitely does not take the conversation into the clouds to talk over your head.
(Big swallow of black coffee) I can see why you might think CSL to be "the greatest theologian of the 20th C., but I disagree. Was he the greatest theologian or was he one of the greatest 20th C. Xian communicators? I ask because, for me, I don't see him sometimes taking very consistent theological stances. For example, I recall reading The Problem of Pain and Miracles in my early 20s and being terribly disappointed by CSL's theology. At one point he argued the Edenic account was a myth, made an allusion to Adam's "first" wife Lilith, and just didn't sway me much re how he explained evil in this world; was God sovereign or not? Part of the explanation may be that Lewis wrote these books earlier in his Xian walk, and as he matured in his faith through trial and adversity, he came to sounder conclusions; A Grief Observed comes to mind. Now there's a book I could embrace as he mourns transparently the loss of his wife, Joy. Remember how he calls God "a Cosmic Sadist"? It takes him a number of pages before he commends God's goodness and likens Him to a benevolent veterinarian who must do certain inexplicable things (from the viewpoint of the afflicted dog) for the dog's best good.
I don't know who I might nominate for "the greatest theologian of the 20th C". Several names come to mind: Dr. David Martyn-Lloyd Jones, M.D., W.W. chaplain Oswald Chambers, my beloved messianic Torah teacher, but probably, with God's sense of humor, it's some anonymous soul who will never be recognized in this life.
CSL was an excellent communicator, in that we are agreed. And when I have time (and an indulgent audience), I like to sit and play with the question, How did Jack take grand, often abstract concepts, find correspondence in the everyday world, and then articulate them so effectively?
As a sidenote, have you ever noticed the differences in writing styles amongst biblical authors? For example, Paulus of Taurus' writings reveal a highly educated man whose thoughts were so quick that his pen just couldn't keep up with his mind. He wrote long, contorted sentences, and one can almost feel his frustration at the slowness of using stylus and papyrus. Matthew, a Jewish tax collector, references the Hebrew Scriptures often and frequently uses vocabulary that hints at his profession: debt collecting or storing up treasures.
One of my favorite authors T.R. Glover writes admiringly of Jesus' ordinary speaking vocabulary, as recorded in the gospels:
quote:Look at his method of teaching. People "marveled at his words of charm" (Luke 4:22) -- "hung about him to hear him" (Luke 19:49). He said that the word is the overflow of the heart. "OUt of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" (Matt. 12:34; Luke 6:45). What a heart, then, his words reveal! How easy and straightforward his language is! To-day we all use abstract nouns to convey our meaning; we cannot do without words ending in -ality and -ation. But there is no recorded saying of Jesus where he uses even "personality." He does not use abstract nouns. He sticks to plain words. When he speaks about God he does not say "the Great First Cause," or "Providence," or any other vague abstract. Still less does he use an adverb from the abstract, like "providentially." He says, "your heavenly Father." He does not talk of "humanity"; he says, "your brethren." He has no jargon, no technical terms, no scholastic vocabulary. He urges men not to over-study language; their speech must be simple, the natural, spontaneous overflow of the heart. Jesus told his disciples not to think out beforehand what they would say when on trial (Mark 13:11)--it would be "given" to them. He was perfectly right; and when Christians obeyed him, they always spoke much better than when they thought out speeches beforehand. They said much less for one thing, and they said it much better. Take the case of the martyr -- an early and historical one -- whose two speeches were during her trial Christiana sum and, on her condemnation, Deo gratias. ~The Jesus of History, 1917, p. 80
We know CSL loved languages. I'm pretty sure he learned several secondary ones as a lad (Latin? Greek?). Given his love of words and language, perhaps he was, like T.R. Glover, a more astute observer of Jesus' conversations recorded in Scripture. It would make sense, for a Xian, to want to communicate as ably as his/her Lord; alas, to one extent or another, we all fall short, some more than others. To be honest, I never really noticed *how* Jesus talked before reading Glover. But I think perhaps the more CS Lewis (and we?) learn to combine plain language with uncommon grace and beauty, the better communicators we become. 'Tis a goal worth striving for, don't you think? (And for contrast, what kind of language annoys and irritates?)
(Swerving off that bunny trail and onto another one.....) You wrote:
quote:As for the quote above, it was in a letter to Arthur Greeves, one of his oldest friends. He made the comment after thinking about a passage from the book by George MacDonald, (his favorite author), Before he says that quote in the letter he says, “ This has a terrible meaning, specifically for imaginative people. We read of spiritual efforts, and our imagination makes us believe that, because we enjoy the idea of doing them, we have done them. I am appalled to see how much of the change which I thought I had undergone lately, was only imaginary. The real work seams still to be done.” Maybe the “drag” he is talking about is endemic in every attempt to improve ourselves. For him it was his attempt to work out his spiritual quest. For him it was his attempt to work out his spiritual quest.
He wrote that letter on 15 June 1930 and writes that he became a Christian on 28 Sept 1931.
Thank you very much for the background of my CSL quote. The context you provided definitely helps sharpen CSL's original meaning; the quote seems less about the "drag" of living the Xian life and more about pre-Xian (impotent) self-efforts. Is that correct?
Still, I've currently been thinking about how to live the Xian life. So you'll pardon me if I use an Oswald Chambers quote from which to launch:
quote:Drudgery is the touchstone of character. The great hindrance in spiritual life is that we will look for big things to do. "Jesus took a towel... and began to wash the disciples' feet."
If I do my duty, not for duty's sake, but because I believe God is engineering my circumstances, then at the very point of my obedience the whole superb grace of God is mine through the Atonement. ~My Utmost For His Highest
Given CSL could fling philosophical arguments with the best of them, teach arcane literary figures of speech at university, etc., what did he know of drudgery?.....or, whatever is the equivalent of unstrapping filthy sandals and washing stinky feet? In other words, does he have 'street creds' to write books like The Screwtape Letters and Mere Christianity? Jack talked the talk but did he walk the walk? Maybe he was a great communicator, but did his life bear visible spiritual fruit (Matthew 7)? Perhaps a quote I've copied in my bible can convey better what I'm wondering; Mike Renihan in a Tabletalk devotional wrote, "My personal frustration with all this is that people who are quick to defend an inerrant Bible before accusing skeptics are slow to implement the principles in their own life and worldviews. What good does it do to believe in an inerrant revelation from God if we are not going to obey it? Call this 'impractical inerrancy.'"~ January 1993
I guess I'm looking for examples from CSL's life that would point to him living an integrated Xian life, where his words and walk match. That's where I was trying to head in my first post with my CSL quote..........
Now I have talked too much, and there's a dark coffee ring stain in my empty mug. Plus, the waitress is glaring at us because she wants to call it a night; she reminds me somewhat of MissBusyBee in looks. I guess we better leave her a nice tip to appease her. She's already banked the fire in the fireplace. I can hear a dog across the grey mist howling mournfully. It's one of those damp English nights. G'night. See you again soon, if the good Lord permits.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
[This message was edited by Airedale on 07-26-08 at 11:26 AM.]
Hello. Sorry I’m late…traffic and all. With this term ending, and kids going home, things are pretty hectic.
How was your walk home last night? Wasn’t it cold? I thought it was cold to the bone. It is nice and toasty in here. It was definitely late when we left. Was it 2 or 3 am? Isn’t it funny how you lose track of time when you are probing the depths, of subjects you love, in a deep conversation.
I see you have already ordered some "pub grub.” Mmmmmm…that sandwich looks good. Hey…you got a little something right there…no the other si…yep…you got it.
I said, “Hi,” to John behind the bar on the way in, and the guy who parks his bicycle outside in front of the door. It is hard to squeeze through that little doorway when his big bicycle is there. I smiled at him and gave him a greeting as I walked in. He was getting his helmet on and strapping himself up. I think I saw him at the market the other day. He has a nice bike. I am going to get me one just like it, aannd, I am going to get me a sandwich, with extra cucumbers, and a drink before the lunch crowd stampede begins. What a nice day it is today. The weather as finally brightened up a bit. This is definitely shorts weather.
What do you think of the new paint job outside? I like the new softer, lighter, yellow. It seems more inviting compared to the old, brighter, yellow. I think Mrs. Belgrove finally got her way over Mr. Belgrove on that one. She was right about the color but, wrong about stopping free chips, with a pint, on Tuesdays, and adding free mushy peas with Fish & Chips on Wednesdays. Six for one, half a dozen for the other, I guess but, one should consider the more loyal customers, like ourselves, before taking away something we have enjoyed for so long. Maybe it is a good thing though, I don’t have to worry about eating all that salt. Change is one of those permanent parts of life that we have to accept I suppose. Hopefully, our regular meetings here will not change anytime soon.
Man!, I have been so busy lately. Let me take off my coat. Haaaa…I cannot wait until the pace of work slows down. I really hate working so much. I am not sure what the point is of working as much as I do. Having it consume almost all of the hours of the days and weeks is not good. What is the point of such a fast paced life? Isn’t life supposed to be somewhat fun? Always looking towards the future and never appreciating the present. I am planning on making changes to limit my work load to M-F 8 hours a day and that’s it. I would much rather spend my time here with friends - at least more than I do now. I don’t want to sound like a broken record but, I am so thankful for these moments of oasis here in the colorful walls, and wood, of my favorite spot. Hey look! Whole made pie of the day topped with a scoop of ice cream on special. We may have to revisit that later…maybe share a slice. I am going to call waitress Beatrice.
Before we continue I want to say that you probably know much more about theology than I do.
About your comments the other night, you are probably right about CSL’s position as a theologian and a Xian communicator. My proclamation may have been influenced by that spicy thing I ate earlier in the day. However, I might want to talk more about what the proper definition of a theologian is. I know he did not take many theological stances, and he frequently said that he was no theologian. He did have such a brilliant understanding of life, or the human condition, God’s interaction with humanity. I really have never read anyone who penetrates the fog surrounding the issue of God engaging humanity with such clarity.
Also, forgive me for my lack of knowledge here but, depending on what the definition is of a theologian, I want to say that maybe my observation was based on the importance of assigning weight to theological principles. I think CSL deserves a spot near the top for whatever title is appropriate for describing how theological principles play out in everyday life. I think it is important to give high praise for someone who can communicate the essentials. There are necessary things to believe firmly in, (ones with no wiggle room), there are moderately important things to loosely agree on, and then there are non-essentials that one could have different ideas on without compromising the core beliefs. I know there are dangers in assigning arbitrary value to theological principles but, has you know, there are accepted core principles, that are not changeable, and then there are the things open for discussion. This is a principle that is not only found in theology.
In the case of CSL, I believe he was brilliant at delivering the message of Xianity’s principles in an order of importance to people who would otherwise be scared away by advanced theology. I think he spoke to the everyday life of people and their struggles. He helped identify, and move away from, people’s misunderstood ideas of God that are so tied into their own experience with authority figures in their life. He presented God as He was and without the psychological baggage. For example, God was not someone watching over you waiting to bring the hammer down as soon as you strayed from His impossible rules or some cosmic benevolent uncle who is there when you need him but otherwise stays out of your business.
Also, when determining who to nominate to such a position, is it the ones who make it understandable to the masses or is it someone who knows the minute details of everything? What is more important - the one who is bringing all the people to the banquet or the ones who know the most about the honored guest? Again, how you define theology is important. I tend to think that the one who brings people to the banquet is at least equally as important to the others. Once you are at the banquet than the quests can determine how to get to know the honoree in more detail. There seems to me to be a beauty about simplicity. I heard Martin Luther once said that, and I am paraphrasing, “if we would just embrace the first two words in the Lords Prayer, ‘Our Father,’ ‘Abba, Father", how it would change us.” That is simple and profound. CSL had such a great way of presenting Xianity that I have read several times how it was primarily his writings that were given credit from people in every point on the social, economic, and intellectual scale, (people like Francis Collins and others in the highest places of society), as their reason for conversion to Xtianity. The importance of Oswald Chambers and Dr. David Martyn-Lloyd Jones are obvious. It has been my experience that I have read them after I was invited to the banquet.
“How did Jack take grand, often abstract concepts, find correspondence in the everyday world, and then articulate them so effectively?” This would be a great question to spend a lot of time on - with examples. I am going to think about that one. You are right that he combined, “uncommon grace and beauty,” in his writings. I am not sure exactly how many languages he knew but they were many, including the poetic language. One kind of language that annoys and irritates me is kind that promise you 5 steps to this and 7 ways to be a better whatever. I can’t place a label on it, but I also dislike the kind of language that people with a scientific background use when they think, because the have a degree of knowledge in a particular science, they can confidently proclaim there “expertise” in practicing amateur philosophy. Now I am getting off track.
Of CSL and drudgery:
I know from his letters that he talked about spending a great deal of time caring for an elderly woman, who was the mother of a friend, I think, that he allowed to live in his house that he shared with his brother. Towards the end of her life she had a stroke and he did spend a lot of hard time caring for her. His brother was also an Alcoholic who spent time in an infirmary. His mother died when he was young. I believe he was wounded in WW I as an infantryman. He seems to be very generous with his time and money. His correspondence with his students from Oxford after they graduated are many. They are all filled with concern for whatever problems they are experiencing and sincere advice. He frequently says that he is not qualified to give expert advice in areas that are not his expertise but offers his humble advice. He constantly talks of his struggles with flaws in his own character, which is something that does not disappear, and did not disappear once he became a Xtian. He had grievances with God. After a long time as a bachelor he married late and his wife died a few years later. His struggle with dealing with that loss is the subject of his book A Grief Observed. I think his quote, “It is so fatally easy to confuse an aesthetic appreciation of the spiritual life with the life itself -- to dream that you have waked, washed, and dressed, and then to find yourself still in bed,” was one he could have used throughout his life as a warning to not be too comfortable with your own assessment of where spiritual health.”
Ok. You want to order some pie now? Before we go we will have to figure out when we will meet again in the “Rabbit Room” at the “Bird and Baby.” We have been here awhile so we should leave a big tip again. Now, do you want apple pie or peach cobbler?
----------------------------- "In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis
[This message was edited by eagleandchild on 07-30-08 at 11:30 PM.]
Posts: 582 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 11-12-07
Haven't dropped the conversational ball here -- just been extra busy this week. Yesterday, for example, I devoted half a day to picking free green beans from a generous elderly gentleman's garden. Another day this week I had the fun of heaving my pitchfork (not fiery) into the earth to excavate my own beautiful potatoes. Searing heat to boot, so it kind of temporarily wipes out one's mental acumen.
Anyhoo, you can bet I'll be ready for my ice cold ambered glass of German beer (sorry, England) and good conversation in another day or 2.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
I decided to come in alone for a bite to eat. I know everyone is busy but, I am going to drop in anyway. I am in the neighborhood, I have some time on my hands, I am hungry, and there is no rush to get home - everyone is away. I need to find a place to park my car and myself for awhile. Maybe I will see someone I know inside. Maybe, as per her tradition, Mrs. Belgrove has whipped up some of her special desserts for the students arriving for fall term. I hope she has - and yet - I hope she hasn’t. I think I need to lay off the desserts a little. I have been hitting them hard this last week. Although, I have not noticed a change in my appearance using the mirror test, I am not sure how reliable that is in gauging the impact of pastries abuse in the span of a few days. I have had an apple fritter with my coffee for the last 4 mornings in a row. Even though each time I tell myself that eating something made mostly of batter, cinnamon, and sugar, then deep fried until golden brown, is not good for me, it does little good.
For some reason my defenses have been down this last week. I think it is because I am out of my regular routine. I have been away and there is no coffee in the cupboard, there is no food in the fridge, and I am too busy to go to the market. I have to go to the local coffee shop to get my morning boost. As I stand in line, waiting to order, I have a clear view of the pastries. As I get closer they seem to taunt me more and more. The closer I get, the more my mind falls under their spell. Each pastry calls to me, saying it own name. The strongest draw is the apple fritter. The word apple fritter is so nice to hear - especially when it is said slow, low, and soft, with all the syllables drawn out as long as possible, and it’s golden, glistening, magnificence is in front of my eyes - “aaappllllllle ffffrrrritteerrrrr….yyyuuummm…(and in a higher tone)…eeaatt mmee.” That is how it calls to me. “No!” I say. My attempts are useless. Despite my best effort - I cannot resist. I take my prize, concealed in its brown bag, out to the car where we can be alone…together….forever. Well, almost forever. Ok. That’s enough about apple fritters.
Just being alone here, in this place, where so many fond memories make me feel good, is nice. Not in a depressing, needy way, but, in an appreciative way; Appreciation for friends that make life better when it is shared with them. They are unnecessary for survival but, they give value to it. There is no better way to experience life. I feel a unique sense of gratefulness for my friendships; along with a little sadness that they will not be here to share this life forever. Although we were talking last time about theology I want to think about friendship today. So…I will sit in the back as usual, order up some of my favorite food and drink, think about friends, observe the people around me, and soak up the ambiance. There is no bike out front to scoot around. John is behind the bar. Here is my seat. I will put down my loose stuff. What’s on the chalkboard? Crispy Coated Camembert for £4.25, Deep fried and served with Cranberry sauce. Yum. Deep fried, mmmm. Well…next week I will eat well. Here comes Abigail to take my order. She looks cheery. I am feeling comfortable.
If there was anything CSL regularly spoke of an appreciation for it was his friends. They held a hugely important place in his life. He said, ‘Friendship is the greatest of worldly goods,” and, “Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities.” When asked what advice to give young people starting out in life, he said they should arrange to be as close as possible to good friends.
“In The Four Loves Lewis calls friendship "the most spiritual of loves.” It is the "love of all loves" which raises one ‘to the level of gods or angels.’ Himself a man of many friendships, Lewis bemoaned the fact that few contemporaries saw them as important:
“When either Affection or Eros is one's theme, one finds a prepared audience. The importance and beauty of both have been stressed and almost exaggerated again and again . . . . But few modern people think Friendship a love of comparable value or even a love at all. I cannot remember that any poem since "In Memoriam," or any novel, has celebrated it . . . . To the Ancients, Friendship seemed the happiest and most fully human of all loves; the crown of life and the school of virtue. The modern world, in comparison, ignores it.”
“Lovers are always talking to one another about their love; Friends hardly ever about their Friendship. Lovers are normally face to face, absorbed in each other; Friends, side by side, absorbed in some common interest . . . . True Friendship is the least jealous of loves. Two friends delight to be joined by a third, and three by a fourth, if only the newcomer is qualified to become a real friend.”
In The Four Loves CSL discusses, what he sees as, the causes that have contributed to Friendship not being, “the main course in life’s banquet,” but rather, “a diversion; something that fills up the chinks of one’s time.”
Here comes the food already. I have to eat and then I will think on this some more.
----------------------------- "In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis
[This message was edited by eagleandchild on 08-22-08 at 12:31 AM.]
Posts: 582 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 11-12-07
Dang! Where does the time go? Sorry I've been away so long. Summer's are just grueling for me. Some folks think I'm nuts when I say I can't wait for colder weather. Actually autumn is my fav time of year. If you can catch Abby's eye, have her kindly move that mound of empty (*cough*) plates beside you, so I can plop my heavy knapsack down, eh?
Check out my basket of garden produce I left on the counter over there.... fresh picked cucumbers (the Asian slender kind, not the fat pickling kind), heirloom tomatoes (small but sweet), nearly unblemished, tender green beans. Unfortunately a varmint (chipmunk? squirrel? deer?) dug up all my lima bean seed early summer, so I haven't any pole limas this year. Have you ever eaten raw lima beans? They have a delicate nutty flavor, nothing like their horridly disfigured and blanched cousins packed in cans on grocery shelves (no offense intended, Mrs. Belgrove; yes, I agree your specialty is mouth watering fresh baked desserts). Anyone here may help himself to any of the produce he'd like to bring home to share with his family. I often thank God I have enough to share with friends.... that's at least half the fun of putting in a veggie garden.
Okay, a multitude of bunny trails to pursue:
exploring what a theologian is (and isn't)
discussing how well CSL integrated his Xian talk with his walk
using language to communicate with clarity and passion
and, most recently, CSL's touting friendship-love above the others
oh, and one more: how sinful temptations can bear a striking resemblance to beguiling fritters (no, no, I'm not saying fritters are sinful, merely that there's an analogy begging to be made how hamartia likes to incarnate itself in the form of, figuratively speaking, fritters)
Speaking of fritters, Abby, would you -- ? Mmmmmmmmm. Now, where I was I? Well, I'm tired and don't think very well at night, so allow me to ramble about friendships, which doesn't seem quite as taxing a topic as the others.
CSL did indeed appear to cherish friends. Did he make friends easily? I don't know. Perhaps he did moreso via the pen than in person. We certainly have a plethora of accumulated letters that would indicate he was a man of discipline when it came to answering his correspondence (note to self: take a page from his book). I have a copy of the published correspondence between him and his childhood friend Arthur Greeves; the book is fairly thick, and even tho their correspondence somewhat dwindled when they grew apart spiritually and geographically, they nevertheless still kept sporadically in touch. I'm impressed by that kind of loyalty in CSL; I mean when he became a published author, radio commentator, Oxford professor, it would have been easy to forget his mate whose own career was unimpressive by comparison.
One of the funnier recollections I picked up in reading biographical sketches of CSL is that after he met his future wife, Joy, and introduced her to his men friends at the Bird and Baby, they were unimpressed. Considered her gauche, mouthy, pushy, etc. Maybe part of it was her Americanisms and it was just a culture shock to the gentlemen profs? Whatever, it kind of negates at least in this instance CSL's observation:
quote:Two friends delight to be joined by a third, and three by a fourth, if only the newcomer is qualified to become a real friend.
I'm sure in Jack's mind the lovely, witty American woman 'qualified' to join his inner circle, but his feelings about Joy were not reciprocated by his clubby men friends.
Scriptures' Hebrew Proverbs notes, "There is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother." One would naturally think blood ties would be stronger, but this isn't always the case. Perhaps that was true for Jack as well. After all, he was semi-estranged from his father in his adult years, his mother had died in his childhood, and while he and his only brother Warren were fairly close and seemed to get on well together, Warren's alcoholism had to have made a dent in their relationship with perhaps Jack being the more 'straight' parental brother and Warren being more the rogue prodigal, so they couldn't be characterized as 'equals' in a friendship.
CSL's point about friendship-love not being commemorated in poem or novel since "In Memoriam" is thought-provoking. I confess to not reading many 20th C. modern novels, so don't know if that observation of his is hyperbole or truth (I suspect the former). Can you think of any recent movies where friendship is elevated (I'm pretty movie-illiterate, esp. past my bedtime)? At least in the 1st Narnia book/movie, one sees quite a bit of friendship (and its betrayal by Edmund) on display -- e.g., the beavers and how they risked their lives for the children. No doubt about it, Eros in 21st century is regularly elevated in the media above all other kinds of love, which certainly distorts a viewer's expectations about life and fulfilling relationships. Oh, I know.... some of the Star Trek movies definitely played up the friendship angle, e.g. Spock giving his one life for the many (Wrath of Khan, 1982). Throughout the original series even the friendship between Kirk, Spock and McCoy manifested itself in how they created 'inside' jokes, sacrificed their comfort for each other, and always spoke to each other with respect.
I am sure I have more to say about Lewis' 4 loves, but I'm beat and will quit jabbering before I sound like an idiot tonight. Goodnight, my friends........
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
Ok, Abby, here you go. I have to tell you that there’s another fritter is in a bag - over there on the mantle piece…no…wait……it’s here in my pocket…hmm…isn’t that…isn’t that odd now…and yet…after all…why not…why shouldn’t I keep it? You say, “You should give the fritter away. Is that so hard?” Well…no…and…yeesss. Now it comes to it. I don’t feel like partying with it. It’s mine. I bought it! It came to me! There is no reason to get angry?! What? Well if I am angry it’s your own fault! It’s mine…my own……my preecciioouuss! What business is it of yours what I do with my own things?! You say, “You’ve had the fritter quite long enough?” Well, you just want it for yourself!
(You stand up and shout out my full name in a deep scolding voice, as the light in the room dims all around except for around you, and you continue, “Don’t take me for some maker of insincere, cheap, friendship chitchat!” And then, as the light slowly comes back you say in a softer, friendlier, voice, “I am only trying to help.” Snapping out of it and feel remorseful and say, “I am so sorry”).
Ok, the part about you shouting and the lights dimming did not really happen except in my head. Here Abby. Here’s the fritter on the plate. I got crumbs all over me and on the floor. You’ll have someone clean it up? All right. Thank you. Sorry again.
Let’s ignore what I said and continue talking. I am actually already feeling better having given up the fritter. Maybe we should order up some coffee so we can stay up late. I would like to talk more about what CSL’s says about friendship. Let me get Abby, and ask her for two black coffees. I will be right back.
Ok she’s bringing them.
CSL says, In The Four Loves, that friendship is one love that most people have a hard time understanding because few have experienced it. Its qualities easily escape our grasps in daily living. They are not necessary for our survival. They are discouraged by authority. Current culture does not place a high value on them and in some cases discourages them. Romance and violence is currently more highly esteemed and Friendship is often confused with companionship or affection. But there was a time when friendship was held up as a supreme form of love. It qualities were highly regarded and placed in a position above Eros and affection. CSL details the qualities and characteristics of what Friendship love is, a standing shoulder to shoulder and looking out at a sharing of some aspect of life that few share. It is that rare instance that you come across someone that shares some of your deepest thoughts. It is where as in “Eros will have naked bodies; Friendship naked personalities.”
CSL says, “When either Affection or Eros is one’s theme, one finds a prepared audience. The importance and beauty of both have been stressed and almost exaggerated again and again. Even those who would debunk them are in conscious reaction against this laudatory tradition and, to that extent, influence by it. But very few modern people think Friendship a love of comparable value or even a love at all. This was not always the case. Antony and Cleopatra, and Romeo and Juliet have many counterparts in modern literature: David and Jonathan, Pylades and Orestes, Roland and Oliver, Amis and Amile, have not. To the Ancients, Freindship seemed the happiest and fully human of all loves; the crown of life and the school of virtue. The modern world, in comparison, ignores it. We admit of course that besides a wife and family a man needs a few ‘friends.’ But he very tone of the admission, and the sort of acquaintanceships which those that make it would describe as ‘friendships,’ shows clearly that what they are talking about has little to do with that Philia which Aristotle classified among the virtues or that Amicitia on which Cicero wrote a book. It is something quiet marginal; not the main course in life’s banquet; a diversion; something that fills up the chinks of one’s time. ”
When explaining why Friendship is not valued highly today, CSL says, first, it is because few experience it. He says the fact that life can be experienced without experiencing Friendship points to this loves main qualities. Friendship, he says, “ is the least natural of loves, the least instinctive, organic, gregarious and necessary. It has the least commerce with our nerves; there is nothing throaty about it; nothing that quickens the pulse or turns you red and pale. It is essentially between individuals; the moment two men are friends they have in some degree drawn apart together form the herd.”
He says that this non natural quality was why friendship was cherished much more in ancient and medieval times. He said the most cherished and thoughts of this time where “ascetic and world-renouncing” and Friendship love was the “most independent, or even defiant, of mere nature.” And, “in Friendship – in that luminous tranquil, rational world of relationships freely chosen – you got away” form all the loves, like Affection and Eros, “that were too obviously connected with our nerves, too obviously connected with the brutes. You could feel these tugging at your guts and fluttering in your diaphragm.” In Friendship, “you got away from all that.”
CSL credits the end of the importance of Friendship to coming of, “Romanticism and ‘tearful comedy’ and the ‘return of Sentimentalism; and in the train all the great wallow of emotion which, though often criticized, has lasted ever since. Finally, the exaltation of instinct, the dark gods in the blood; whose hierophants may be incapable of male friendship. Under this new dispensational that had once commended this love now began to work against it. It had not the tearful smiles and keepsakes and baby-talk enough to please the sentimentalists. There was not blood and guts enough about it to attract the primitivist. It looked thin and etiolated; a sort of vegetarian substitute for the more organic loves.”
CSL lists other causes that have contributed to Friendships decline such as the tendency of most “who see human life merely as a development and complication of animal life all forms of behavior which cannot produce certificates of an animal origin and of survival value are suspect.” Friendship also is discouraged by those that over value the collective since Friendship is the highest level of individuality. Friendship, “ withdraws men from collective ‘togetherness’ as surely as solitude itself could do; and more dangerously, for it withdraws them by two’s and three’s. Some forms of democratic sentiment are naturally hostile to it because it is selective and an affair of the few.”
As I read what CSL says about friendships I realize how, over the years, I have neglected placing a high enough priority there. As I get older, and have experienced it, I have come to see what a wonderful thing it is. Questions I have are: what are the limits of this kind of love? What to you think?
Can you hand me a handful of raw lima beans? I think my desire for whatever those things were earlier has been removed.
The short time spent here made me forget about them.
----------------------------- "In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis
[This message was edited by eagleandchild on 09-01-08 at 12:48 AM.]
Posts: 582 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 11-12-07
Say, eagle who's that cool looking dude over there wearing expensive looking shades, a leather bomber jacket, with a squirmy kid bundled under one of his arms? -- and there's a "Jack-" something tattooed on his left arm too. Cute boy....... must be the cool dude's son. Look how everyone in this joint is gravitating to the cool dude....... admiring the kid's thick shock of hair and his dexterity. How does he grab his foot like that and jam his toe in his mouth? I think I've seen that cool dude at least once before. He comes in with his computer and pulls up some kind of "Knockout's 13 question survey", and then starts recording folks' answers. Maybe he's into marketing or politics, given his aptitude for research. Today he must just be relaxing with his kid. Nice to see a father and son spending time together, don't you think?
Anyhoo, long time, no see. My garden's winding down, though just today I picked jalapeno peppers, green peppers, eggplant, a couple of smallish tomatoes, aaaand 2 tomato caterpillars that I "airlifted" a few caterpillar-light years away (grrr).
Pardon me as I pull out a few crib notes I recorded when last we chatted about CSL and friendship. I had to pull out my dog-eared copy of The Four Loves to refresh my memory. I had forgotten that CSL uses the word "Affection" to loosely equate with the Greek idea of storge-love (clan, family love), not phileo-love (friendship), so you can appreciate my initial confusion when hearing you read earlier several excerpts from CSL's book.
CSL:
quote:To the Ancients, Friendship seemed the happiest and fully human of all loves; the crown of life and the school of virtue. The modern world, in comparison, ignores it. We admit of course that besides a wife and family a man needs a few ‘friends.’ But he very tone of the admission, and the sort of acquaintanceships which those that make it would describe as ‘friendships,’ shows clearly that what they are talking about has little to do with that Philia which Aristotle classified among the virtues or that Amicitia on which Cicero wrote a book. It is something quite marginal; not the main course in life’s banquet; a diversion; something that fills up the chinks of one’s time. ”
I rather hate it when CSL indicts the entire 20th century (more hyperbole), but I do think perhaps because of the Industrial Revolution, technology and manufacturing made it easier to neglect "community", be that family or friendship ties. Working on an assembly line 8-10 hours a day, redundantly inspecting the same part, for example, can't compare with a community barn raising event where craftsmen exchange not only hammers but sage advice. Some work environments are just more conducive to making and retaining friendships than are others, and in the West, at least, individuality -- "Lone Ranger" status -- is often admired and elevated above interdependence.
As for how friendship in modern and post-modern times is "a diversion; something that fills up the chinks of one's time", CSL seems to be implying that in his opinion decent friendships will take up large chunks of time, the very opposite of a diversion ....
Still, I think CSL may be glossing over the process of befriending. The art of befriending is a bit like a grandmother cooking her soup. One could just pop open a can of commercial chicken soup... but where's the love? Good chicken soup begins with a fine chicken carcass, boiling water, onions, peppercorns. When the meat is thoroughly cooked, one then separates the stock from the meat (and meat from the bones). Refrigerate overnight. Day 2 skim off the fat from the stock, begin to "build" your soup with barley or brown rice, herbs and seasonings..... you get the idea.
Contemporary of Jack, W.W.II French pilot Antoine Saint-Exupery penned The Little Prince (1939) and played lightly with the question, "what is friendship?" in his narrative between the questing Little Prince and the Fox:
quote:"Are you looking for chickens?" [asked the fox]
"No," said the little prince. "I am looking for friends. What does that mean -- 'tame'?"
"It is an act too often neglected," said the fox. "It means to establish ties."
"'To establish ties'?"
"Just that," said the fox. "To me you are still nothing more than a little boy who is just like a hundred thousand other little boys. And I have no need of you. And you, on your part, have no need of me. To you, I am nothing more than a fox like a hundred thousand foxes. But if you tame me, then we shall need each other. To me, you will be unique in all the world. To you, I shall be unique in all the world..."
Jack might balk at our fox's reference to mutual needing, but the point is friendship, deep and strong ones like Jack was lauding, do not exist without preliminary taming sessions:
quote:The fox gazed at the little prince, for a long time.
"Please--tame me!" he said.
"I want to, very much," the little prince replied. "But I have not much time. I have friends to discover, and a great many things to understand."
"One only understands the things that one tames," said the fox. "Men have no more time to understand anything. They buy things all ready made at the shops. But there is no shop anywhere where one can buy friendship, and so men have no friends any more. If you want a friend, tame me..."
"What must I do to tame you?" asked the little prince.
"You must be very patient," replied the fox. "First you will sit down at a little distance from me -- like that -- in the grass. I shall look at you out of the corner of my eye, and you will say nothing. Words are the source of misunderstandings. But you will sit a little closer to me, every day..."
If we in the 21st century were to read CSL's writings, we might be tempted to remedy our lack of friendships by radically shifting gears and pursing a potential friend or two with focused zest, not understanding what CSL probably thought was self-evident: there's an intermediary "taming" process whereby each friend assays the other's mettle first; sometimes taming winnows out further contact, sometimes it forges deeper bonds. True friends are the personification of patient tamers. Their fidelity weathers the years.
As usual, I have more notations on your notes regarding Jack and friendship, but it's getting late, so I'll have to curtail my thoughts until next time. Our cool dude left an hour ago.... his son was sound asleep in his arms when he slipped out the door. I might need that last lone fritter to eat for a little extra energy on my walk home -- you did forego that fritter for me, right? Why are you looking at me like that? Whenever I see one raised eyebrow, I sense censure. Yeah, high fructose sugar is bad for us..... yeah, eating carbs late at night makes for a more acidic ph..... okay, okay........ just give me that glass of water... and don't let me hear Abby saying she handed that fritter to you after I left tonight! See you later, mate!
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
'Ello, all! Decided to give my best Brit-imitation greeting, so as to spare you from smelling my garlic-jalapeno "Hhhhhhhello". Spaghetti squash and tomato-garlic pasta sauce for dinner with salad greens on the side. Yum!
Eagle, I--. Very funny, pushing your chair 10 feet away. I realize I'm a bit, er, pungent. Abby, would you mind bringing me a large sprig of fresh parsley with my coffee. Seems I am to be ostracized until I vanquish my dragon-breath.
Now, where was I? Ah, yes, last we met I sputtered out mentally and didn't finish my thoughts regarding your comments on Jack's Four Loves. So here goes....... To summarize, you posited four points Jack argued for what has caused friendship (phileo) love to diminish in perceived value in modern, and now post-modern, times in the West:
"Philos" is a love with no guarantee that it will be experienced in a man's or woman's lifetime as will eros and storgas. "Without Eros none of us would have been begotten and without Affection none of us would have been reared, but we can live and breed without Friendship."
"Philos" was misrepresented by culture, much as the once decent word "meek" has been. When KJV translators (which included Wm Shakespeare btw) translated Jesus in Matthew 5 saying, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," meek's meaning of "controlled strength" was diminished over the centuries by negative and weak connotations; today someone who's described as "meek" conjures up a picture of a milque-toast, mild-mannered geekish nerd; originally "meek" had the idea of a man of strong convictions and passions who nevertheless was able to keep himself in check. Likewise, "philos" has fallen on hard times. Perhaps too many love-struck teens have been let down by the object of their desires by the infamously horrid, yet all-too-familiar line, "I just want to be your friend." "Friend" in such a context is right down there with pet dogs who are tossed table scraps occasionally.
Darwinism/scientism also has undermined the unique humanity of philos, analytically dissecting hormones and synapse responses, denying the wholistic immaterial soulishness of man and relegating bonds of friendship to no more than creaturely imprimaturs akin to the cat rubbing her scent on your trouser or a bonobo picking fleas off his bonobo "friend's" back. Granted (scientism's devotees say), humans are more complex, but still they are merely a step on the evolutionary ladder of brutes. Nothing more, nothing less.
Finally, Philos-friendship intrinsically pulls away from the pack, collective, group, clique because it is selective and elective. We live in times where herd-mentality and pc-correctness are rewarded; questioning gadflys and unpopular lone prophets are persona non grata! On a more pragmatic level, it's just impossible to have many true friends b/c our time is limited and finite, and friendships by nature bask in one-on-one encounters or in close-knit fellowship of the few.
Now, to your question:
quote:As I read what CSL says about friendships I realize how, over the years, I have neglected placing a high enough priority there. As I get older, and have experienced it, I have come to see what a wonderful thing it is. Questions I have are: what are the limits of this kind of love? What to you think?
That's the beauty of great writers, like Jack, isn't it? He makes us think and rethink, sort out, examine, and reconsider our lives from higher angles. In a strange way, via his book, he is being our friend from across the grave. How amazing is that..... the power of his words are his legacy to us who would, virtually, sit at his feet and "listen." Me thinks he is a friend-tamer extraordinaire.
What are the limits to friendship love? Well, first your question begs another question: "Are there any limits to a friendship love?" To answer "yes" implies a Limit-gauger who imposes "Thus far and no further" or "You will step over the bounds of friendship here if--". Did CSL acknowledge a Limit-Maker? Those who've read CSL's final chapter "Charity" in The Four Loves have no doubt:
quote:"Hitherto hardly anything has been said in this book about our natural loves as rivals to the love of God. Now the question can no longer be avoided."
"Left to themselves [storgas, eros, philos] they either vanish or become demons. Only in His name can they with beauty and security 'wield their little tridents.' The rebellious slogan 'All for love' is really love's death warrant (date of execution, for the moment, left blank)."
"If 'All'--quite seriously all--'for love' is implicit in the Beloved's attitude, his or her love is not worth having. It is not related in the right way to Love Himself.
"It is probably impossible to love any human being simply 'too much.' We may love him too much in proportion to our love for God; but it is the smallness of our love for God, not the greatness of our love for the man, that constitutes the inordinancy."
"The real question is, which (when the alternative comes) do you serve, or choose, or put first? To which claim does your will, in the last resort, yield?"
A wise Christian sage has said, "Love [Agape] God -- and do whatever you want." That's the limit on friendship. Jack wrote early in his book, "When [homage] is offered to a woman, we call it admiration; when to a man, hero-worship; when to God, worship simply." So long as our devotion to a friend is subordinate to our devotion to the Lord, fine and good. The rub is that too often, being warty, self-deceived creatures who keep tripping into mud pits, we are very good wanters who want what we want when we want it. Especially when we find ourselves in a tight spot and want a shortcut out of the setback. One minute we're loving God single-mindedly and the next our affections, time, thoughts, and yearnings are diverted and redirected to heroes, attractive women, and/or best friends.
I'm NOT saying heroes are bad, attractive women should be veiled, nor best friends consigned to the junk heap. I'm just trying to reiterate what Jack seemed to sense: that any other human love, without supernaturally being 'tamed', is a rival to the loyal-love first due the Lord God.
How might limits on a friendship look practically speaking? As noted earlier, philos love pulls away from the herd and gravitates to one other or a few others who share a similar point of view. There's joy and adventure during the discovery process, a high of "You too? You've thought the same thing as I!?" Giddy Amazement. "You've suffered that same upset?" Powerful empathy. "You discovered that great fishing hole too?" Warm Kinship. What if this road of discoveries occurs at the office? What if you both have spouses? Do your spouses know of the office friendship? Are you emotionally more connected to your spouse or your office mate?
Or let's say you're a prof at the nearby university and your best friend also teaches there. What if the Administration begins to enforce a new dress code which you both think idiotic? What if you feed off each other's criticisms and share a 'let's revolt!' spirit (and for the sake of argument, let's say your combativeness is truly out-of-bounds)? So long as you are reinforcing each other's shared disgust for the Administration, how likely is it that the Administration will be successful in getting you to defer to your contract's obligations? Your colleagues' disapproval won't move you b/c you both share and reinforce an "us against them" mentality.
Okay, it's past my bedtime, so I'm gonna call it quits again. Somewhere in the recesses of my stacks of folders and papers, I recall doing a fascinating study on how philos and agape are used in Scripture. Maybe I can excavate it one of these days (years?) and add it to the mix. What's this? A bag of peppermints? I don't get-- .... uh, very funny. Good nighhhhhhhhhhhhhht.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
OK, you did it. In speaking that one long word, you managed to wilt the plant on the table, sear the hair on my eyebrows, create a 10’ “no people” radius around us, and send Mrs Belgrove’s dog, Fletch, running through the swinging doors, and back into the kitchen whining. Sometimes, Aire, an attempt at a little humor can go a too far. This is one of those times. A good comedian knows her limits. Ya know, saying that last word may have been funny under certain circumstances but, as you see now, your little stunt is not so funny after all.
If anyone doubted the power of words, your last annunciation should leave no doubt. Out of the corner of my eyes, I see you have caused a raucous. Let’s just pretend we do not know what’s going on and look all around. Yeah, up and down like that…ahhhuh…gooood. Man, I hope you are proud of yourself.
It seams that there are strange looks coming from people all around the pub and they are aimed in our direction. I think everyone knows we – I mean you - are somehow responsible. I think it’s possible, in a short time, you may have gone a long way towards wearing out our welcome at our favorite spot. Let’s just hope we are allowed back.
I will say though, in the midst of all this, I would recommend you eat more garlic, and more jalapenos, more often – if the results are such inspirational discourse. Those were some good insights - even if I had to listen to them from the next table over, filtered through the noise of the surrounding tables. I was so focused what you were saying that I forgot to give you the peppermints earlier. By the way, have you ever noticed the soothing affect the sound of shaking mints in the container, have on people in a group?
Now that you have them, I will risk getting closer, and in a whisper, let you in on a little secrete. This may signal to the other patrons that we are working on the problem. Here is the secrete: It’s easier to focus on what one says, when ones breath is “minty fresh” instead of coming from a, (English accent here and for all future references), “dirty mouth.” You do not want to be known as a “dirty mouth,” do you? Besides my concern for you, which you know is of paramount importance, in the spirit of giving everyone the opportunity to enjoy themselves here, I do not want people to say, when they see you coming in, “here comes dirty mouth.”
I think the commotion may be blowing over.
By the returning low roar of the patrons, the symphony of the plates, glasses and utensils colliding, and as I survey the room, playing it casual like, I think things are getting back to normal. The only bad thing is I see Mr. Belgrove waving his arms back and forth spraying air freshener across the room. He is occasionally looking over here with a frown. That is the only thing I see out of the ordinary. Oh wait, I see Beatrice and Alex the busboy looking over here and intensely talking. Ok, their shaking their heads…she gave him a plate of half eaten food and she went back to the staging area. He went back to the dishwasher. I hope, I really hope, you’ve learned your lesson.
On a side note, sort of, I want to ask you a question. I feel like I can ask you this since we are friends. Has anyone ever said you really can put down the grub? I mean geez, I feel like I need to make sure I have all my fingers …2…7…9……10. OK. They are all here but, where is the rhubarb candle that was on the table a minute ago? I know you like rhubarb but…the candle? Did anyone see you? Just kidding.
What? No, I don’t think you shou... I mean, it is up to you…but…since you asked, I… don’t think you should have anymore pie. Nooo…ice cream is probably not good either. What? You already had three intermezzo’s. Hmmm. That is NOT good for you either. Yeah ya know…mmm…it’s uncomfortable for me…and I can’t enjoy my meal, when your eye balls are glued to my plate like you haven’t eaten in a week. Can you please take the fork out of your hand..Yeah! Get your hand off my plate. Humpph. I just don’t know about you.
Oh, you are just kidding around again. Ha ha ha, very funny. Is that something right there on your shirt? Ha! I can’t believe you fell for that one. Now, I’m tempted to see if you would fall for the, “do your hands smell” stunt. But, I won’t since I see you are feeling a little vulnerable…unless that’s another act, which would not surprise me in the least.
OK. Now where were we? CSL and the Four Loves.
Listening to you talk, I really liked what you said about friendship and its uniqueness to the other loves; Its uniqueness being found in its qualities and its rareness in life. I think CSL places Philia love in the high position it deserves. Kind of like the main course in a perfect meal. Stroge’s the salad, or appetizer, Philia the main course, and Eros is the desert,. Agape provides all the ingredients and ambiance.
For me Philia love seems to be providing more of the nutritional requirements of life. It is much longer lasting than Eros in its ability to deliver sustained satisfaction in life. It offers a much more satisfying, and rewarding, experience in the long run. It is the high fiber of existence. From a nutritional point of view, it is the “super food” for the soul. Sharing a cause, a point of view, or interest, with someone is far better than the superficiality of Storge and the shorter lasting physical aspect of Eros. Don’t get me wrong, Storge is nice, and there is nothing like Eros but, as far as creating sustained joy, Philia is best.
As for sharing Philia between the opposite sex, it is easy, based on the reasons you mentioned, to get the two twisted. When people of the opposite sex are involved it can get tricky. I think the process of growing Philia is “cleaner” between two people of the same sex because there is not the tension that presents itself with Eros. I am wondering if it is even possible to share a strong Philia love between two people of the opposite sex. CSL does talk a little on it but takes no real definitive stance. He does but seems to give a caveat.
I am a little confused at the position CSL takes on Philia love between the opposite sex. At one point he says that it is impossible to sustain such a love because it goes too quickly to Eros. He later opens up the possibility of its existence, by relating his position to the fact, at the time of his writing, there was a wide social gap between men and women. He suggests that as women gain more equal social status, the possibility of sharing Philia love is greater. I can’t remember the few other times he mentions Philia love between the opposite sex in the book but, I think he was leaning more towards it not being possible than it being possible. I will look it up again. I feel it would be a shame to reject, out of hand, the possibility of a mutually beneficial friendship out of fear of the possibility that it could cross over to Eros. His apprehension towards the subject points towards the “trickiness” of navigating these waters when hints of Philia present themselves in the midst of a relationship based on Storge.
Now, if you don’t mind, I hope you’re comfortable; I will attempt to dissect what I think are the reasons for our attempts at love potentially leaving us “run aground.” I think the reasons for veering off into behavior that crosses the boundaries’ between the four loves, including Agape, are relational based. Personal views are colored by individual beliefs regarding a view of the world and views God. When desires meet residence, a person reacts based on their internal belief about their place in the world.
In emptiness, anger, the frustration in the seemingly lack of reliability of the presence of God’s in life’s daily grind, or the dissolution with others, and the subsequent searching for answers, we are led to demanding something more from those loves then they were meant to provide. As an answer to the frustration of our own attempts at navigating life, or at the feeling of the aloofness of God, we drift towards the desire for more and often dig a bigger hole for ourselves. In desperation we take over the wheel, or helm, as the captain of their own ship.
Unhappy with the current of our own lives, thoughts towards a close friend, or an acquaintance, may go south and cause to navigate, through the fog of emotions, closer to a potential crash. These felling are very powerful motivators and depending on the individual temperament, the degree of suffering, and the speed at which events transpire, will vary. Like your example of a co-worker, a common situation where a blurring of the lines may exist is within a marriage relationship that is suffering.
What if, for example, during the early years of adulthood, because you think it impossible to have a marriage relationship that includes Philia love, you discard the dream of it? You decide that the idea of a “soul mate” is only found in the movies and books, or in the mind of some marketing genius. You get married and settle for a version of married life that is not so “pie in the sky” but what you think is reality.
Somewhere along the way, after your mate has grown far from you, you suddenly find that your pie in the sky thoughts of a perfect mate may be possible. This revelation takes the form of a co-worker, or an acquaintance/friend, that you are finding more and more beautiful everyday. Each day the time you spend thinking about this person gets longer and longer. After awhile thoughts of admiration are joined by thoughts of possibility. You begin a dialogue with yourself.
You say to yourself that you have had time to exercise all your demons that made you less available to a larger gene pool when you were younger and whole new worlds of possibilities for a happy life appear just over the horizon. Your thoughts now come together as a beautiful landscape with all the best emotions splashing themselves across the canvas sky with the brightest and most vibrant of colors. Each emotion attached to the happiest times in your life is just over the hill and begs for your moving forward.
As you direct your gaze away from that appealing scene, you turn to see the colorless life of your marriage is in the midst’s of the, “seven year itch,” or whatever year the inch came in – you forgot. The grey and dreary landscape is depressing. It is winter and dark and gray. You think how long as it been? Your attempts to remember, is taken over by your wondering, “Why should I suffer for the rest of my life.” “The rest-of-my-life.” That is a long time; especially when everyone knows, time goes slower when you are miserable. Yesterday seems like a year ago. Like a snowball falling down a hill of freshly fallen snow, the collections of your mate’s faults begin to accumulate at an alarming rate. The hill is steep and it does not take long for it to take over your whole view.
Numb, you delve deeper into your misery. Your relationship is stale and you wonder if, the word relationship is really applicable at all. The feeling of numbness turns to sadness, then to anger, to feeling trapped, in a life with someone you have maybe only a mixture of Storge and Eros with. You realize that your mate is incapable of sharing Philia love with you. Since marriage you both have grown in separate ways and the most pronounce direction is apart.
In this state of mind you notice your friend through a different set of eyes. Like a breath of fresh air you seemed physically drawn to them. It is Spring every time you are with them. You see a wonderful combination of grace and beauty that you are lucky to have the privilege of knowing. Whether or not you are aware of only wanting to see the best in them, or maybe they are that wonderful, in any case, He or she, embodies all the your spouse is not…and more. The memory of the earlier picture is overwhelming when you meet.
And then, the “testing the waters,” begins. The momentum starting with the initial dabbling in this state of frustration can be unstoppable. Once the ball is rolling, the only thing you can do sometimes is hang on tight, because it is going to be the ride of your life. Forget about the “E ticket” ride, this one is going to be at least a “J,” maybe more.
As your “car” leaves the station, and makes it way up the long first hill with the “clack, clack, clack” underneath, you may feel like you have “hit the super mega, tri-state, ultra lotto jackpot.” Your ship as come in. Pack the bags honey, “we’re going to Hollywood.” There is only catch. To claim the prize you have to pay, to whatever extend you are capable of seeing it, a price up front. Despite your wishful thinking no one rides for free here.
The seduction has all the hallmarks of the best marketing plan. Ultimate joy awaits you, the answer to all your dreams, it is finally your turn, don’t wait; you have only a limited time to take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity. Either it is ripe now, or the prize will go to someone else if you do not make a move. In the midst of all this high stakes pressure, internal thought swirl inside your head. You may feel cheated, you may feel you have suffered long enough, life is unfair, and why not do something for yourself for a change. You owe it to yourself. You are tired of seeing everyone else have fun. You’ve heard other “success” stories. Beside, it may have been meant to be. Who can fight against fate?
I will not go into the period of time of excitement, delusion, second guessing, the ultimatums, and finally the dissolution and ultimate crash. If you got the prize, it certainly does not seem to have the same value as it did at the beginning. Usually the promises do not pan out like you thought. Most of the times, all parties lose out in the end. Not only are the people involved in it hurt but, the innocent victims, like the kids, are as well. Just over the hill in the beautiful landscape was the dreary scene of a graveyard. The end will find you searching for the answers to, “how did this all happen.”
In this state of searching, the painful exercise of the autopsy of the whole thing begins. Alone, in a quite place, with scalpel in hand, you cut away at all the thoughts and events stored in your heart and mind. This is not like an ordinary autopsy because the patient, you, is awake, alive, and highly aware of each cut and opening up of the affected areas. In examining of the inner details, every cut brings more and more pain, and letting of blood. Each cut also opens up new wounds that release thoughts of, you should have known better, what where you thinking, how could something so good turn out so bad, but they promised, etc, etc. How much were you to blame? What about the timing of a “crisis.” Was it coincidental, was is it fate, or was it the result of trying to sooth the pain of your own life. What made me get into this mess to begin with? In the end, you close up the wounds and settle into the slow process of rehabilitation.
The scars will not go away though. They will have a tendency in the future to spring up unexpectedly when you are most off guard.
In this situation, the only consolation and it may appear to be a weak one, is that life is hard and meant to be lived under limits. There is no doubt about this. We see examples of it everyday and records of its existence as old as civilization. As Johann Wolfgang von Goethe said, and as it is in music, as it is in life, “Mastery first appears in limitation, and only law can give us freedom.” We were meant to live life under rules that are absolute.
Despite the ache in your gut from longings not satisfied, the tears, and the despair that accompany it, your inability to grasp what you feel is precious beyond words, is a fact of life. You hold on to the fact that there are laws set up for your good health or you try some new attempt at relief. In the best case you realize that acknowledgment of these laws is not an attempt to appeasing some invented higher authority; it is reality in its truest form. It is not reaching for some mythological being as a coping mechanism; you are embracing truth and tying into the foundation of life. You are following the natural direction that your pain is pointing you to the greatest love of all, Agape.
Beyond the sexual conquests, the position, the meeting of goals, having the right friends, the right house, the right car, the right politics, the right cause, or whatever one pursues in life or holds up as an ideal, there is something more. The frustrations of life are one thing that points to that something. The system of life we live under is set up for us not to be fully satisfied and thus our gaze towards truth is naturally, or super naturally, recalibrate towards that truth.
It is a time tested fact, no matter how hard we try, now matter how much we desire, all the other “less-wild” attempts at fulfillment come up short. Fame, friends, money, service, religiosity, admiration from others, all these never quite, “scratch the itch” that only a relationship with God can. They will come close, and we may think we got just the right spot but, time has a way of lifting the veil of these attempts to reveal that the relief is only temporary and that the inch comes back. Most of the time, as a result, we look somewhere else. The next thing, the next new boyfriend or girl friend, the next new job, a new this or a new that. We have an aversion to the longer lasting cure that awaits us if only we would ask for it.
Now here are the last of my thoughts - OK what’s with the eyeballs? I know it is getting late and my mouth is dry. Anyway, in His grace, God is not some cosmic kill joy, or celestial killer of all that is fun. He is not waiting to bring the hammer down and pronounce judgment on the slightest mess up. He is also not some benevolent uncle waiting in the wings whenever we need a little help getting us back on track. Despite the caricature from some, He is not the head of the thought police waiting to condemn those who lack discipline to the cruelest sentence nor is he an aloof benefactor. Ultimately we are set in a position dealt to us, and given freedom within that system to make good or bad choices. We are the, long curing, catalyst to our future in that sense. In this system we can never make any choices that cut us off from relationship with God except a total, and final, disregard for him. He though eagerly waits for a relationship with us and offers the tempo of life that is the most satisfying. We are invited into his rest and peace.
Wow, that was long. I need a drink of water. I will stop talking so much. On that happy note, I think it is time to leave. I am so tired I could crash on that cushioned bench over there, under the picture of the rolling hills, fall asleep with Fletch curled up at my feet, and enjoy the fresh smell of mint in the air, mmmmzzzzzz. Yeah, Aire… I have a new nick name for you…“Minty freshhhhhhzzzzzzz.”
Well it looks like closing time. That reminds me of a song which ends with the words, “Closing time, every new beginning comes from some other beginnings end.” As tonight ends, I look forward to the beginnings of a new day, anticipating us meeting here again, in the “rabbit room,” for more discussion. Now it is OK to say good nighhhhhhht as I walk out with you into the cold. Make sure you grab your coat…and your mints...and my “to go bag”- I know you want it. Oh…and let’s leave another big tip for Beatrice. It is the least we can do.
----------------------------- "In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis
[This message was edited by eagleandchild on 10-22-08 at 08:56 PM.]
Posts: 582 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 11-12-07
Hey, Fletch! Come here, boy. I brought you one of my Halloween treats. Why is he hiding behind Mrs. Belgrove's counter? Doesn't he at least recognize my voice?
What do you mean, "What happened to you?" All Hallow's Eve is near .... just a few days off, and I thought it would be fun to 'dress up.' So what do you all think of my outfit? Abby? Mrs. Belgrove? Eagle? Yeah, I thought the garlic necklace was a nice touch. Here, Abby, loan me a knife so I can cut the necklace string and share my stinking roses. Everyone here at the pub tonight gets one of my homegrown gourmet garlic bulbs as a token of my affection. We can all munch 'em in fellowship together. Or not. Eagle, stop reflexively rummaging for mints in your jacket pockets. If you want to make First Mate, you're going to have to eat and breathe raw garlic with the best of 'em.
Abby, I think in this get-up I need a dark pint of ale; white foam against the black mustache should give me a rakish sea-rat appearance. Yeah, these piratical scalawag pants and boots accentuate my God-given bowleggedness. I had to rent the dreadlocks, but the silver hooped earring is my own. Did you know pirates pierced their ear because they thought it improved their vision, and now modern acupunturists say they were on to something? Too bad this is just a clip-on earring b/c this pirate will have to put on glasses to drive home. Put that turkey lacing pin away, Mr. Belgrove, this near-sighted buccaneer is not interested in your knack for piercing things.
This? This shiner on my right cheekbone? Actually, that's not makeup paint. You should see what the other guy looks like! Okay, okay, that was a joke. I'll 'fess up. I bought some herbal ointment that claims to remove suspicious skin blemishes. (Disclaimer in case Fuzzies should veer into this thread: It does not, repeat, does not propound to have bloodroot extract, so calm your skeptical jitters.) Anyhoo, for a lark, I dabbed a wee bit on this itchy 'freckle' under my eye last week, and BOOM! that sucker went acidic on me and gave me this half dollar sized red shiner. Adds to my brigand image, though, don't you think? Captain Jack Sparrow would be proud........ gotta keep the 'Jack' theme going here, so work with me.
Look, Fletch finally has slunk over to our table, but I still don't think he recognizes me. Maybe if I flip my black eye patch up. There, that's more like it. A hearty wagging tail and big slobbery kisses. See if you can catch the salted pecans, Fletch...
Eagle, you'll be happy to know you gave me a royal migraine headache or two trying to figure out how many of your observations on friendship to tackle. I guess I'll just dive in and see how far I get. I'd like to start with a rather odd springboard that I hope will perchance make more sense as I discourse. Rummage through my packback, will you, while I finish off these delicious herbed Jerusalem 'chokes? I need the heavy green-bound book. In my morning devotions, I've been reading Dr. David Martyn Lloyd-Jones, M.D.'s published sermons on Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. I'm in a chapter where he's dealing with Jesus addressing his believers who worry as "little-faiths" (Grk: oligopistoi). Lloyd-Jones comments:
Faith, according to our Lord's teaching in this paragraph, is primarily thinking; and the whole trouble with a man of little faith is that he does not think. He allows circumstances to bludgeon him.... Life comes to us with a club in its hand and strikes us upon the head, and we become incapable of thought, helpless and defeated. The way to avoid that, according to our Lord, is to think. We must spend more time studying our Lord's lessons in observation and deduction. The Bible is full of logic, and we must never think of faith as something purely mystical. We do not just sit down in an armchair and expect marvelous things to happen to us. That is not Christian faith. Christian faith is essentially thinking. Look at the birds, think about them, and draw your deductions. Look at the grass, look at the lilies of the field, consider them....
Faith, if you like, can be defined like this: It is a man insisting upon thinking when everything seems determined to bludgeon and knock him down in an intellectual sense.
So we are entitled to define 'little faith' in the second place as being a failure to think, or of allowing life to master our thought instead of thinking clearly about it, instead of 'seeing life steadily and seeing it whole.' ~ Volume 2, pp. 129,130 (my emph)
Now, when trusting God as our "Heavenly Father" is dependent upon how a man thinks in his heart, how he makes observations, draws inferences and logical conclusions etc., how does CSL measure up? Remarkably well, I'd say.
quote:Chad Walsh: In manner, [CSL] was straight to the point. He was not given to the sort of chitchat that simply fills in time, though in some moods he could take delight in a battle of verbal wit.... To him an ideal conversation was an intellectual fencing match, and may the man with the best dialectic win. The few times I crossed swords with him, he won. (from Afterword in A Grief Observed, p. 98)
Speaking in America, Owen Barfield remembered the way Lewis affected all the groups he was part of, including the Inklings. The first way was unconsciously and unobtrusively by the sheer force and weight of his personality, and, as Barfield put it, "a rather loud voice when he was in high spirits." Lewis would set the tone and decide the topic of conversation.... The second way Lewis affected a group was that, irrespective of the subject brought up, he always turned it around to the point where it was a moral issue or problem. If anyone did not think that a moral issue was involved, Lewis reminded him that there ought to be. (The C.S. Lewis Encyclopedia, "Inklings", p. 98).
To his close friends in the Inklings, however, Lewis was the jovial life and soul of the party, pipe puffing, swilling his theology down with the best bitter or cider, and delighting in a good joke or pun. (CSL Encycl., Preface, p.8).
"Swilling his theology down with the best bitter or cider" captures picturesquely what it means to be a thinking Xian. Being a Xian doesn't mean living like a prune-faced Pharisee rapping naughty knuckles when someone's having fun. Nor does it mean pulling one's forelock dutifully heavenward one-half day a week and then living the remaining 6.5 days like a practical atheist. No, it means that whether one is tutoring at Magdalene College or cutting firewood for an ill family member or meeting with one's Inkling mates for a night of verbal jousting, one is constantly seeing through an inner biblical prism, ever aware of God as one's ultimate audience.... By contrast, Jack aptly described the unbeliever in his "Transposition" essay as one who "sees all the facts but not the meaning."
What I liked about our last meeting, Eagle, was how you exercised your Xian faith to think about Philia love, its strengths and weaknesses. You did so in the best tradition of Lloyd-Jones and CSL, me thinks. I had argued there are limits to Philia love, citing two brief examples (office mates of the opposite sex who are married to others and teaching colleagues who rebel in tandem against the Administration), and you had bantered back Jack seemed to be a bit of 2 minds on whether friendships of the opposite sex are 'do-able' or not.
You had then said,
quote:Now, if you don’t mind, I hope you’re comfortable; I will attempt to dissect what I think are the reasons for our attempts at love potentially leaving us “run aground.” I think the reasons for veering off into behavior that crosses the boundaries’ between the four loves, including Agape, are relational based.
And you succeeded in your 'dissection.' Listening to you paint that hypothetical case of Philia love gone AWOL put me strongly in mind of a Davidic psalm. David's psalms often began in a minor key of plight, reached a spiritual crescendo, and then concluded with the psalmist's conviction that he had wrested peace of mind from his turbulent circumstances by reminding himself of God's past mercies to him.... and 'selahing' upon them.
I was struck by the different yet eerily similar parallel experiences of the 7-yr-itching married man and Jack-as-the-grieving-widower in A Grief Observed, his published 1961 journaling. Both men dealt with loss, both roiling feelings: emptiness, anger, frustration, unhappiness. Both men cross-examined themselves in the privacy of their thought lives; early on in their introspections, God seems more of an aloof Cosmic Sadist but the more they think and ponder the character of God, the more they find themselves ever so slowly wooed back to the same query Abraham asked, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" This grieving is a process, however, and can make one feel like a hapless lump of clay being pummeled on the Potter's wheel prior to enduring countless firings:
Our 7+yr-itcher: ... your attempt to remember is taken over by your wondering why you should suffer for the rest of your life. "The rest of your life." That is a long time especially when time goes slower when you are miserable.
Jack: Part of every misery is, so to speak, the misery's shadow or reflection: the fact that you don't merely suffer but have to keep on thinking about the fact that you suffer. I not only live each endless day in grief, but live each day thinking about living each day in grief. (p. 9)
7+yr-itcher: Ultimate joy awaits you, the answer to all your dreams, it is finally your turn, don't wait; you have only a limited time to take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity.... In the end, you close up the wounds and settle into the slow process of rehabilitation. The scars will not go away though. They will have a tendency in the future to spring up unexpectedly when you are most off guard.
Jack: Oh, my dear, my dear, come back for one moment and drive that miserable phantom away. Oh God, God, why did you take such trouble to force this creature out of its shell if it is now doomed to crawl back -- to be sucked back -- into it? (p. 20)
7+yr-itcher: Despite the ache in your gut from the longings not satisfied, and the tears, and the despair that accompany it all, your inability to grasp what you feel is precious beyond words, is a fact of life.
Jack: What chokes every prayer and every hope is the memory of all the prayers H. [Joy] and I offered and all the false hopes we had. Not hopes raised merely by our own wishful thinking; hopes encouraged, even forced upon us, by false diagnoses, by X-ray photographs, by strange remissions, by one temporary recovery that might have ranked as a miracle. Step by step we were "led up the garden path." Time after time, when He seemed most gracious He was really preparing the next torture. (p. 35)
7+yr-itcher: Now here are the last of my thoughts b/c it is getting late. In His grace, God is not some cosmic kill joy, or celestial killer of all that is fun, waiting to bring the hammer down and pronounce judgment on the slightest mess up.
Jack: When I lay these questions before God I get no answer. But a rather special sort of "No answer." It is not the locked door. It is more like a silent, certainly not uncompassionate, gaze. As though He shook His head not in refusal but waiving the question. Like, "Peace, child; you don't understand." (p. 80)
Do you see the parallels? Those Xians who have what they do not want, and those Xians who want what they do not have, may harbor different private heartaches, but they, paradoxically, experience a fellowship of suffering, a 'secret' language of pain that only the initiated can speak and translate. Is not that reality an even greater consolation than, "Life is hard and meant to be lived under limits"?
Solomon's Ecclesiastes journaling pushes the premise of "Life is hard and meant to be lived under limits" to the limit (pun intended). I like to think he penned his final memoir soon after he had a close brush with death himself or perhaps he attended the funeral of a dear friend, for most of the book has overtones of death as the Great Equalizer and Life as inscrutably brief. Like Lloyd-Jones, like Jack and like our 7+yr-itcher, elderly King Solomon thinks. Thinks hard. Doesn't duck the tough questions. Hammers out painful conclusions. Chafes against how finite his knowledge is.... If Jack and our 7+yr-itcher only lived their lives from the perspective of "under the sun" (birth to grave), what is the point of deferring to limits (and by inference to a limit-maker)? You live ... you die, just like a lion or dog. In his famous "A Time for Everything" poem, Solomon dimly grasps there is this "vanishing point" beyond time, and God has put that eternity in human hearts. Rabbi Paulus of Tarsus, in light of Yeshua's resurrection out from among the dead ones, could write confidently some 1000 years after Solomon's journaling, "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us [believers]" (Rom. 8:18).
This life is hard. But it's only a training ground, obedience class, boot camp. The Good Shepherd disciples his 'lambs' to move, be it ever so slowly, from "little-faiths" to "great faiths". And this kind of transformation requires merciless thinking.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Hand me my scabbard, will you, Mr. Thought-provoker? I need to cinch it back on my belt. Yikes! What's that crawling on my knapsack?.... Oh. I never even felt my mustache fall off. Too busy making my looooong case to you and Inkling ghosts. And if I weren't so tired I could go on longer, but I've really got to get going. Don't forget my precious garlic-bulb-gift beside you..... keeps the vampires at bay on an evening like this. I guess I strayed from the Philia theme some, but we can pick it up again next time, if you want. Or move on to another subject, whatever. Anything 'Jack' related is fine by me, even Jack Sparrow's dreadlocks.
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
[This message was edited by Airedale on 10-27-08 at 08:09 AM.]
Well, Miss Airrrre, that be a fine costume ye have there. Ye did Jack Sparrow proud. Arrr, as far as me eat’in your home grown garlic bulbs, I guess I better be act’in starboard, since I be wantin' t' go to sea, an' I don't be wantin' t' end up in Davy Jones' Locker. And, t' last thin' I want be t' be on t' wrong side o' t' captian.
There is something about all the “busyness” of your dress. Dragging your right foot as you walked was a nice touch too. I heard you coming from the next room over just after Fletch’s ears perked up. As for leaving the tip wrapped in a piece of paper, with a black spot in the center, I am not sure Abby will understand the significance of that one. If she did I hope she does not suffer the fate of Billy Bones. She may just think it is a foreshadowing of more garlic breath. It was a nice touch anyway.
The costume suits you well. It draws attention to the most endearing part of your personality, that of being a champion for what is good and right, while not beholding to any man, woman, nor their creed. I like it. If I would have known how much fun it would be, I would have dressed up myself. I forgot we would not be meeting again until early November.
As far as “reflexively rummaging for mints in your jacket pockets,” that is a habit I only picked up since hang’in with you. As a mtter of fact, I only do it around you. That is something I just realized right now. I need to take an inventory to see what other behaviors I have picked up since knowing you. With a quick review, subtracting the few embarrassing moments, I can say they have been good and substantial.
Now that it’s November, how do you like the change to colder weather? I have been noticing some of the best sunsets out the window lately. Each night glows with the most wonderful colors of orange, yellow and red, brushed across the sky. It has been nice to walk around the neighborhood in the evening in the crisp cold air. I like Fall and Winter best. This year the change seemed to correspond with the elections. America seems to be divided along strong political lines. I am glad the elections are over. It is nice to be reminded that there is more to life than the constant transmission of political messages.
A few quotes from CSL on the matter of politics comes to mind.
“I am a democrat... I am a democrat because I believe that no man or group of men is good enough to be trusted with uncontrolled power over others. And the higher the pretentions of such power, the more dangerous I think it both to the rulers and to the subjects. Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant a robber baron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent.
But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations. And since Theocracy is the worst, the nearer any government approaches Theocracy the worse it will be. A metaphysic, held by the rulers with the force of a religion, is a bad sign. It forbids them like the inquisitor, to admit any grain of truth or good in their opponents, it abrogates the ordinary rules of morality, and it gives a seemingly high, super-personal sanction to all the passions by which, like other men, the rulers will frequently be actuated. In a word, it forbids wholesome doubt.”
C.S. Lewis on politics. Source: Lewis 1966:81.
“A political programme can never in reality be more than probably right. We never know all the facts about the present and we can only guess the future. To attach to a party programme - whose highest real claim is to reasonable prudence - the sort of assent which we should reserve for demonstrable theorems, is a kind of intoxication”
C.S. Lewis on politics. Source: Lewis 1966:81-83.
"Being a democrat, I am opposed to all very drastic and sudden changes of society (in whatever direction) because they never in fact take place except by a particular technique. That technique involves the seizure of power by a small, highly disciplined group of people; the terror and secret police follow, it would seem, automatically. I do not think any group good enough to have such power. They are men of like passions with ourselves. The secrecy and discipline of their organisation will have already inflamed in them that passion for the inner ring which I think at least as corrupting as avarice; and their high ideological pretensions will have lent all their passions the dangerous prestige of the Cause. Hence, in whatever direction the change is made, it is for me damned by its modus operandi. The worst of all public dangers is the committee of public safety. The character in 'That hideous strength' whom the Professor never mentions is Miss Hardcastle, the chief of the secret police. She is the common factor in all revolutions; and, as she says, you won't get anyone to do her job well unless they get some kick out of it."
C.S. Lewis on politics. Source: Lewis 1966:82.
"Certainly we do not want men to allow their Christianity to flow over into their political life, for the establishment of anything like a really just society would be a major disaster. On the other hand we do want, and want very much, to make men treat Christianity as a means; preferably, of course, as a means to their own advancement, but, failing that, as a means to anything - even to social justice..."
The Screwtape Letters, Chapter 23.
“"It is easy to think the State has a lot of different objects -- military, political, economic, and what not. But in a way things are much simpler than that. The State exists simply to promote and to protect the ordinary happiness of human beings in this life.
A husband and wife chatting over a fire, a couple of friends having a game of darts in a pub, a man reading a book in his own room or digging in his own garden -- that is what the State is there for. And unless they are helping to increase and prolong and protect such moments, all the laws, parliaments, armies, courts, police, economics, etc., are simply a waste of time."
Mere Christianity. Page 199.
Anyway, those are a few examples. What are your thoughts about that. It looks like lunch is over and I have to be getting back to work. It has been getting busy lately. I need to take some of my own breath mints from all the garlic bulbs I ate, which had Jack Sparrow dreadlock hairs mixed in, since I best be learnin' t' be act’in' like a buccaneer since I be want t' make first mate.
. ----------------------------- "In all of our hearts lies a longing for a Sacred Romance. It will not go away in spite of our efforts over the years to anesthetize or ignore its song, or attach it to a single person or endeavor." Brent Curtis
[This message was edited by eagleandchild on 11-21-08 at 07:54 PM.]
Posts: 582 | Location: CA, USA | Registered: 11-12-07
As hot as you can make it, Abby, please. Try pouring boiling hot water in my mug first, dumping it, and then adding the coffee.
Yes, I am cold! It's so cold a polar bear would get hypothermia! Ahhhhhhhhh, steaming, black coffee to unshiver me timbers. Hey, no cracks about my blue fingers. I just stepped indoors; you've been here -- judging by the mess of empty plates on the table -- long enough to warm up. I think I need a double order of clam chowder to get comfortable. It's not real crowded tonight; would you mind moving over to that table nearer the fireplace? Fletch has the right idea, don't ya, boy?
I like how the staff have tacked up their own Christmas stockings on the mantle. Did you notice on that far end there's even one for Fletch? It looks like some elf has already tucked a bone-shaped treat in his stocking's toe too.
Did Mr. Belgrove hire that blond college student with the guitar to play "Greensleeves" and other mellow hymns? What a kind gesture on his part. It looks like she's getting some tasty and monetary tips thrown in her open guitar case. The music adds an uncommon, almost medieval touch. Say, watch Mrs. Belgrove; she's waving her feather duster like she's conducting an orchestra. Shhhhhhhh. Laugh too loudly and you'll break the guitarist's concentration.
Okay, last time we met you handed me a printout filled with CSL quotes related to politics and government; then you asked:
quote:Anyway, those are a few examples. What are your thoughts about that?
Nothing like a wide-open question there, eagle. "Here's a hot potato, Aire. Catch!" I felt like a Blood Hound that had just flushed out a covey of quail all flying in different directions. So many considerations to think about -- which is why it took me so long to get back to you. Didn't quite know how to tackle this beast of a topic.
I guess I'll start by saying from all I've read, Jack was not invested heavily in the politics of his day. His writings don't seem "dated" but rather have a flavor of always being relevant and interesting. He uses ordinary, every day examples of domesticity or business or religion, but he avoids -- astutely -- aligning himself with liberal or conservative MPs, this tort reform measure, that emigration law; had he done so, his written thoughts on government and politics would sound old-fashioned and irrelevant.
Now when you have time, you might want to read the entire article "Finding the Permanent in the Political: C. S. Lewis as a Political Thinker" by John G. West, Jr, but for now allow me to draw your attention to a couple of pertinent paragraphs:
quote:If you expect to find a prescription for solving air pollution or advice on how to win an election, don't bother reading Lewis. He has nothing to tell you. His concern was not policy but principle; political problems of the day were interesting to him only insofar as they involved matters that endured. Looked at in this light, Lewis's penchant for writing about politics and his simultaneous detachment from the political arena seem perfectly explicable. It is precisely because Lewis was so uninterested in ordinary political affairs that he has so much to tell us about politics in the broad sense of the term. By avoiding the partisan strife of his own time, he was able to articulate enduring political standards for all time.
Now, I ask you, do you think all Xians should follow Lewis' example and have a pretty detached and disinterested 'take' on current affairs? One can never envision this Magdalen College/Oxford professor running for office in some down-and-dirty political election. Should that inactivity (apathy?) be the norm for Xians? Or was Lewis the exception?
As a Xian, I suffer foggy thinking with regards to Xians and their relationship to whatever thralldom they abide in. There are cases in Scripture where godly men and women are dramatically, instantaneously elevated to powerful government positions by monarchical decree (e.g., Joseph, Esther, Daniel). But I can't think of instances in Scripture where god-fearers aspired to, and were voted by a democratic society, to positions of government rule.
How partisan dare professing Xians be? How strongly, if at all, do Xians fight for certain 'red button' social issues, assuming they live in a political environment that permits much in the way of political involvement? I had a beloved Jewish bible mentor years ago who stunned me when he confessed to not voting in elections, not really having much interest in politics at all. His sole passion was investing every waking moment of his life in sharing how Yeshua was Ha Maschiach (Israel's messiah) for those who had ears to hear.
Otoh, I think of someone like William Wilberforce, a Xian in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, who again and again fought to abolish the British Empire's lucrative slave trade. Because he had political ambitions, he was elected to Parliament where he was empowered to chip away at slavery. Would CSL have anything but praise for him?
In the quotes you shared last time we met, there was one that had me scratching my head b/c it just didn't sound like a position CSL would take. I 'Net searched the quote and realized it was taken from the satirical Screwtape Letters where an older demon is coaching his nephew in how to best seduce the latter's human. Here's your quote set in a bit longer passage for context:
quote: ...it will be quite impossible to remove spirituality from your patient's life. Very well, then; we must corrupt it... Looking [at] your patient's new friends, I find that the best point of attack would be the borderline between theology and politics. Several of his new friends are very much alive to the social implications of their religion. In the last generation we promoted the construction of...a "historical Jesus" on liberal and humanitarian lines; we are now putting forward a new "historical Jesus" on Marxian, catastrophic and revolutionary lines... The advantages of these constructions, which we intend to change every thirty years or so, are manifold. About the general connection between Christianity and politics, our position is...delicate. Certainly we do not want men to allow their Christianity to flow over into their political life... On the other hand we do want, and want very much, to make men treat Christianty as a means..., as a means to anything, even to social justice.
Hmm, what an intriguing distinction: the forces of Hell do not want Xians to live integrated lives where their Christ-likeness naturally woos unbelievers to spiritually quest for a relationship with the Lord of lords; rather the Father of Lies and his minions prefer hijacking the truth about Yeshua so ambitious men use His Name as a political mascot to cement greater political power. Which thought ties in nicely with all your prior quotes where CSL eschews Theocracy as "the worst of all governments." He appears to be using "Theocracy" as a metonym for religious zealotry run amok (e.g., "inquisitor").
Robber baron vs. Inquisitor. Jack does a good job of arguing how the robber baron's avarice has a better chance of being checked because he may harbor some "wholesome doubt" about his vocation whereas the Inquisitor, by temperament and conviction, is radically and single-mindedly sold out to "inquisiting". The victim, it would seem, has a better chance of pleading mercy from the former than the latter.
That said, John G. West, Jr.'s article about Lewis and his politics, does argue Lewis foresaw scientism becoming modernity's next "Inquisitor":
quote:Fascism and communism were the two most obvious manifestations of tyranny about which Lewis wrote, but they were far from the only kinds of tyranny about which he was concerned.8 Tyranny comes in many forms, most of which are more subtle than Stalin's gulag or Hitler's death camps. Lewis knew this, and his most compelling writings on tyranny for us today focus on these more subtle forms of oppression. In particular, Lewis was concerned about the tyranny that could result from the union of modern science and the modern state....
One might be tempted to conclude from this that Lewis's objection to science was narrow--that all he really opposed was the abuse of science. But such a conclusion would be misleading. For when Lewis said he wasn't attacking "science" or "scientists" he seems to have had a very specific meaning in mind. He was not attacking science insofar as it was the quest for greater knowledge; he was attacking it insofar it was a quest for power--in particular, for power over man....
The cardinal danger of depending on science for political solutions, then, is that science is divorced from those permanent principles of morality upon which all just political solutions depend. Indeed, words like "justice," "virtue," "mercy" and "duty," are terms without meaning within the scientific framework. And so while science is not necessarily tyrannical, it can easily become a tool for tyrants because it has no firm grounding in morality. The same goes for politics: Without a firm grounding in a firm morality, politics easily slides into tyranny.
Well, it's getting late and I'm running out of steam. Feel free to pick up any loose thread (and there are a plethora) I've thrown out re politics and run with it. I'm interested what thoughts you have re the Xian in the 21st century and his relationship to his temporal political environment. What is your comfort zone in terms of participating/refraining? What are the pitfalls of Xians getting too closely allied with secular parties who may share the same political goal of one issue?
Are you going to put anything in those stockings over there for the staff? S'pose they'd enjoy finding more of my gourmet, home grown garlic bulbs in their stockings? My garlic stash is getting pretty depleted. If I give them all away, I won't have any left for myself. What's that you muttered? "No vampires for a decade?" What do vampires have to do with stocking stuffers?
------------------------------ The opposite of joy is not sorrow. It is unbelief. ~ Leslie Weatherhead Picture me with my ground teeth stalking joy--fully armed too, as it's a highly dangerous quest. ~ Flannery O'Connor
